Rebalancing ST Remix

Incorrect. The only way to do a meaty that cannot be countered by a reversal throw/attack is if the meaty attack is done from such a far distance that you are outside of the range of their throw or reversal attack.

For example, if you do Gief’s far crouching roundhouse from MAX range, so that just the tip of it hits, you might be far enough away to avoid being hit by a reversal SRK or to be thrown. If instead, you do Chun’s close fierce punch as a meaty everyone should be able to reverse your attempt.

The only reason why it seems like some of these things work is that people don’t always nail the timing.

A reversal special (that has invulnerable frames or attack hit boxes on the first frame) or a reversal throw will beat any meaty ground attack every time.

That’s why safe jumps are so great, you can option select your opponent with a well timed jump. If they reverse then you land safely in and block, if they don’t reverse then they either block or eat your jump in.

risk/reward

chun’s cl.fp xx lightning legs is like 40% + probable dizzy lol

The vega comment you silly man.

In general reversal throw will win, but there are certain times (seemingly random) where even a perfectly timed reversal throw won’t work. Instead of a throw, you’ll hear a reversal normal move come out (even though you were point-blank, and holding back). You can still block in this situation, because [normal move + block] on the same frame results in hearing the normal move but still blocking.

I still have no idea why this happens, but I can reproduce it fairly easily.

Really? Wow, I’ve never seen that. The only thing close to this that I’ve experienced is Chun Li’s Reversal Upkick. 9 out of 10 times I’ll get it, but once in a while I’ll hear her say “Yap!”, but nothing comes out and I’m still blocking. Weird. And seems to happen only with Chun Li.

OK Thanks!!! I always wondered about this. I knew I wasn’t crazy though :slight_smile:

It seems I can only beat vegas that try too many wall games, when they just turtle and poke I might as well just let them win.

I’d like to see a ‘SF Anniversary’ patch for HD Remix that adds ‘old’ versions of each character with elements from WW, CE and HF.

^^

Well…the only thing about that is doing such a thing would completely unbalance the game. I believe a fairly reliable tier list for Anniversary Edition is in the Shoryuken.com Wiki. Check out the tiers there and you’ll see what I mean.

Fuck yeah CE Bison !

What I meant was that there would be a single rebalanced ‘old’ version of each character with elements from WW, CE and HF. It’d be like what Sirlin did with the SSF2 and SSF2T characters in HD Remix. I always thought that this is what they should have done in the first place.

Oh…I get it now. :slight_smile: I think that could be interesting.

I think I can actually offer some decent guesses for this.

Some normal moves may have unhittable boxes at their tip or some other weird area. I know this is the case with Boxer’s low strong, at least. Hell, I use it as a meaty against Akuma since reversal DPs just whiff right through it.

Or it could be the frame-dropping issue with higher game speed, similar to how safe-jumping against Ryu is a 50/50 proposition even with perfect timing.

That’s because the throwable hitbox (same as the vulnerable hitbox?) is too far and you’ll either block if you messed up or get hit if you try to reversal throw on time. But that’s not what NKI is talking about. Sometimes, a point blank move with attack and vulnerable hitboxes definitely within throw range won’t be reversal thrown and you’ll just block but also hear the sound effect for that button’s normal.

I love threads like this, just for the “theory fighter” arguments that pop up.I doubt that we’ll see a rebalancing patch for this game, just purely for financial reasons from capcom, and i already think that HDR is the purest form of street fighter i’ve seen to date, so even if it’s never re-rebalanced it’s still my all time fave SF game, but here are my 2 cents on some of the more irksome things that could do with a change or 3.

I’m trying to stay away from the “buff my favourite character and nerf everyone else” bullshit here and think of the overall game balance.

Honda: Take away the stored ochio.Along with the lack of a whiff animation it’s a major advantage that he doesn’t need up close. In return give him back his stored super, and make the startup invulnerable to fireballs, not just the mid air part.The rationale for this is that it can be soooooo hard for honda to get into mid distance against the likes of turtling deejay that he needs an option from full screen.Also make the firece HHS even easier to mash out.I don’t think that how fast you can mash should be an obstacle to whether you can get a special move or not, it should be available whenever you need it.Make the HHS do less chip damage across the board to compensate, and give the fierce one more pushback on block to push honda farther away.Leave the super as punishable on block, and make the fierce torpedo less safe on block so it’s not as spammable.
Jab torpedo should also be able to go through akuma’s 3 hit red fireball, instead of getting hit by hits 2/3.This is just lame and adds to akuma’s bullshit keep out tactics where he’s already got a big advantage in that match.

Ryu: Nothing except a few wierd random niggles like some combos not working even if you time them perfectly.I think they got it more or less right with him.Love the fake fireball’s effect on his mind games.

Ken: Some way to nerf the spam Jab dragon punch tactic that’s so abused online because of lag.This is a tricky one, because the techniqie only works onlne, and is quite punishable offline, but the miniscule window to punish that’s so random online just results in a spammable move that ken can do way too much with little risk.Spam should be punishable, not nearly risk free.Also slightly nerf the horizontal range of his fierce DP.Seems silly that i can jump back to evade it, and still get hit by it at the very apex, way late in it’s trajectory.

Deejay.Make it even easier to mash out all 4 hits on the MGU.It’s a pretty worthless move as it is, except for in combos, it shouldn’t whiff and leave you vulnerable after 1 or 2 hits.Sirlin fixed the same kind of issue by making ken’s firece dragon punch juggle for 3 hits instead of sometimes whiff after the first one.If you get in and hit with an MGU you should get all 4 hits, to make it useful, not eat a reversal cause of the variable hit timings depending on how fast you mash.Also a tiny nerf on the startup of the max out projectile, because it’s stoopid fast.

Blanka: Completely buff his super.It’s shit, and nobody falls for the “hold the button to delay it” trick.So many characters can just spam crouching jab on reaction once they see it start up, and will beat it clean.Take away the slow startup and make it come out instantly and travel around the same speed as dictator or honda’s super instead but be somewhat vulnerable on block.

Guile: Fix the “can’t combo into super with the new motion” bug.Also make the mid air backbreaker move a more deliberate choice, instead of something that gomes out by accident when a guile who’s in mid air and has started charging down back hits HK to kick you, and gets a backbreaker back throw by accident instead for twice the damage.Either nerf the damage by 50% to make it the same amount as a HK, or make the move a forward air throw only so he has to lose charge to go for it.Everything else is fine.Love the new overhead, and the speed feels just right.

Boxer: Fix the TAP negative edging glitch, and less invincible startup on buffalo headbutt.Nothing else.

Dictator: Give standing jab even more priority as an anti air.It would strengthen bison’s corner game, but not by too much, a big damage anti air would give him too much advantage combined with his offense.The idea that somebody posted of giving him a teleport to escape corner traps is ludicrous.It would make him seriously overpowered.

Akuma:Shit where do i start.It’s all been said before, but key ones are a recovery on landing from air fireball, inability to do hi/low mixup with air fireball/crMK, no inescapable demon glitch, and all the usual broken bullshit.

There are also loads of annoying things about the game design.There are other threads about these so i won’t go into detail, but an option to kill the rubbish music all over the menu screens would be good, as well as both players having to hit OK to start the game in the lobby so you’re not sucked into another match when you wanted to leave.An option to leave a spectator match would be good too, and generally making lobbies easier to get out of without disconnecting (aside from while actually fighting of course) would be good to have.

Killing the menu screens to study the hitboxes in training mode, and a record mode to set up training on specific situations would also be priceless.An option for a 2 player training mode via xbox live would be cool for teaching people combos etc.

Oh you won’t nerf my DJ^^

Dee Jays gameplay is very much about his MOs and nerfing them would make him much worse. He’s really fine as he is now. A bit like Ryu.

I think rebalancing just Honda would make this game almost perfect. He generates the most unfair matchups of all the characters I think. I don’t really know the effects of taking away the stored Ochio but to me it sounds good. Fierce HHS really do a lot of chip dam, especially when done on wakeup. Maybe just increase the pushback? Honda should be a powerful character and his HHS should feel damaging. Making the super go through fireballs on startups seems fair but then increase the pushback or Honda wins the round if he lands his Super.

^^

Actually, I think that’s a very good point. Nerfing Dee Jay’s Max Out’s would make his matchup with Ryu, who is already his worst matchup, even worse than it is now. Ryu’s Hadoukens, which don’t need a charge, easily help him win projectile wars against Dee Jay. Worse startup would make it easier for characters to jump and punish the Max Out and Ryu would stand to benefit greatly from that.

If you try to use Blanka’s Grand Shave Roll SC to catch people off-guard from more than their optimal poking range, it’ll never work that way. Instead, use it the way it’s intended…to anti-air any jump in and to catch limbs. As long as your opponent touches Blanka while he’s in that forward bounce, they’ll get popped up for you to juggle them. It’s effective horizontal range may be short, but it is useful. (Just not as useful as other supers that are out there, though.)

I think Blanka would be really scary if he had his “Direct Lightning” (Was that the name? I forget.) Souped Up Horizontal Ball SC from CvS2. (Note how good that super made him in that game.) It would probably be even more scary good than a Shinkuu Hadouken or Crazy Buffalo! I don’t think that would be a good thing, personally. Maybe the solution is to make Blanka bounce further forward for the beginning of the Grand Shave Roll? Maybe the distance of a Short “Rainbow” Roll? shrug

We should do a meeting with some software programmers and test through this shit for some days => that would really help us improving the balancing even more