^^
Perform the Ochio Throw motion and then hold down one, two, or all three punch buttons. When you want to do the throw…release the buttons. You can even “piano” release them and get THREE chances to throw.
Totally unnecessary for an already highly defense-oriented character.
I encountered another SRK member using Ken’s knee mash and well, it did an insane amount of damage. It was like a machine gun effect where it just drained about a little less than half of a full meter in less than 3 seconds. This must be nerfed to max damage somehow because a mixup of his jab DP and this is a brutal wakeup tactic. Nobody else has a 1st frame move that I know of and to deal with that dp and a potential knee mash drain is ridiculous.
Also possibly nerf Honda’s jab headbutt so that it doesn’t have any hitting frames if it cancels a projectile. This would be to improve Sagat’s matchup vs him because Sagat’s extended arms on the high tiger shot are so easily punishable with this move.
in regards to keeping stored oichio because chun can store her super, then honda should have a whiff animation because hawk got one. that alone contradicts itself. but oh yeah, its honda. my bad on that one.
It allows you to execute the move, without actually opening up your defense. If the other character is in range of the garb you get the grab while still being in the d/b position. If the are not in range or they are in the a non-throw-able state no throw comes out and Honda is 100% safe.
The the technical explanation behind it all is pretty long. I can’t get into it right now. But, if now one else explains it by the end of the day. I’ll put something up.
You do the motion (F, DF, D, DB) and then just hold down-back all day long. You can throw out punches or even mash punches to do Hundred Hands Slap. The moment the opponent gets close enough to be thrown pressing punch will do the Ochio throw instead of an attack. You can also hold all three punches and sit there in crouching block. When they get close/wakeup/etc, you release all three punches piano style. This gives you a very safe option-select between blocking and throwing. If they do something like an SRK, you block. If they do nothing or throw out a normal, they get thrown.
Threads like this are funny to me. There’s changes I like in HDR, there’s changes I don’t like, and there were non-changes I would’ve liked to have seen. But ya know what? It’s still a pretty damned good game. It’s fun and it honestly feels more balanced to me than ST.
ST was, and still is, an awesome game. One of the best of all time. But it too had a whole bunch of weird shit in it. Honda still had a stored Ochio in that *and *a stored super. A few characters can’t do reversal supers. Akuma was absurd. O.Sagat was retarded. Vegas knockdown barcelona was retarded. Chun’s wake-up flip-kick shenanigans border on retarded. T.Hawk’s option-select safe-jump into SPD borders on retarded. Etc. I suspect that if ST never existed and Sirlin made that instead of this, that people would be bitching about all the weird/unbalanced things in it.
While I do think it’s fun to dream and come up with lists of what could be changed, I honestly hope Capcom/Backbone doesn’t make all the changes proposed in this thread. There’s some decent ideas in here, but there’s also some pretty bad ones. And without a lot of testing, a drastic list of changes could turn out to be worse than what we have. I have my own dream list of things I wish were different, but if this game does get patched I think it should go like this:
Without having someone at the helm who is both knowledgeable and would really spend the time to test things out, I just wouldn’t trust more changes than that. In fact, given Backbone’s track record, I’m not sure I’d even want to see that much changed.
Well, I’ve rambled enough…
You missed the point I was making. The point isn’t how much damage chun-li’s super does now. The point was of stored moves. I gave you the logic behind why Honda was able to keep his stored Ochios.
I’m fully aware of how sirlin nerfed chun-li’s super/juggle into upkicks.
Go into training mode and choose Honda. Walk up next to your opponent. Do HCB on the joystick from the forward position but end your motion in down+back and not all the way back (or else you’ll start walking backwards). (Honda doesn’t need to do the full HCB for the move to come out). Now you should be right next to your opponent in defensive crouch. While still holding defensive crouch press (or release) any punch button and watch what happens. :lame:
The best part of using the stored Ochio Throw is that when you only perform the punch attacks by releasing the buttons the game allows you option select. With option select, if your opponent is within range and in a state where you can throw them, if you release a punch button after storing the Ochio command the throw will come it. However, if the opponent is still in block stun, out of throw range, or performs a reversal, then if you just release the buttons the throw will not come out and you will remain in defensive crouch. Also if you [media=youtube]t8dD3K2_Pz4"[/media] the inputs by just releasing the buttons, there is zero chance for a normal attack to come out which would lose to a reversal as well.
Being able to ‘negative edge’ the Ochio Throw and store it is a major weapon for Honda that no one else has. In Super Turbo this was the [media=youtube]DdSMUs2QLZY"[/media] of O.Hawk and N.Hawk (starts at 1:45). But now that Hawk has a whiff animation in HDR this form of option select (being able to negative edge a throw) is exclusive to Honda.
Basically the stored Ochio Throw combines, ‘storing moves’ which has been explained here because you ‘store’ the last joystick motion. It usually combines ‘button up’ or ‘negative edge’ which is when you release the buttons only and don’t press them down to get a special move, button up method is unique because normal moves do not come out when buttons are released. And if a move has no whiff animation, like the Ochio Throw, you can ‘option select’ between having the throw successfully come out, or remaining in defensive crouch. Option select can lead to [media=youtube]jCEH0QSI_vI"]all sorts of craziness and is the same principle behind [where if time a jump correctly the game will let the attack hit a blocking opponent but if the opponent performs a reversal then the game lets you land safely. Hence’ safe jump’ because you are safe no matter what your opponent does.
Still groggy this morning (well afternoon but I work [URL=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28_hour_day”]weird hours](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8dD3K2_Pz4"[/media)) so whatever I missed or screwed up someone call me on it. 
I appreciate the logic you gave me.
But you actually gave me your logic. Not the designer’s. No where in Sirlin’s articles does it mention the logic you speak of in regards to Honda and Chun. And if it is there somewhere, then I will easly admit my error. Here is Sirlin’s post about the super:
Following your logic, it would dictate that Honda should still have the stored super if Chun still has her stored super. Not the stored Ochio. But either way, think what you will. I still stand by my POV. :china:
Good luck!
Just to nit-pick…the motion ended in down-back in Vanilla ST. It’s never been a half-circle back.
I’m corrected and wrong.
Oh yeah, definitely. I always say the perfect ST game is somewhere in between Classic ST and HD Remix. There are TONS of really great things in HD Remix… Ken’s Crazy Kicks being tweaked, Zangief’s Green Hand code change (though it should have been DP), Reversal Super bugs, Vega not knocking down on Wall Dives, Zangief and Ken overall, etc. It’s all the subtle things I like. The ones that I don’t like were the “big” changes (Fei Long’s Chicken Wings) and the strangely unnecessary ones (Bison Fake Slide). Even having said that, I love using Fei Long in the game now because of the Chicken Wing and I think I LIVE to land Fake Slide into Throw with Bison.
But I still think the game would have been better off, in the end, being a very super subtle tweak rather than an attempt to make a 6th iteration of the game. Honestly, the amount of change between the previous 5 iterations was huge, even when comparing CE to Hyper. The change from ST to HD Remix isn’t big enough so that, right now, it feels like HD Remix more caused a divide between old school ST fans and new school HD Remix fans. Heck, even if the changes were MORE drastic than they were, I think the divide wouldn’t be there. It’s just perfect enough to be right in the middle, where it’s not subtle enough for old school ST fans not to be bitter about things and for new school fans to really see and learn and appreciate the real nuances of ST. And it’s not drastic enough that it feels like a brand new game that everyone is learning at the same time, old school and new school players alike.
To be fair, in the matches he needed the most help with that stored super didn’t do much. Heh, the only time Honda would usually walk forward is when he had super so it gets telegraphed for miles, not to mention it can be hit out of whether it connects or not. IMO, the HDR Honda super is WAY better, especially as an anti-air. Still not safe on block, but still better :smokin:
Yeah, don’t get me wrong. I also think Honda’s super is way better in HDR. I was just pointing out that ST had even more stored moves.
LOL, well, that explains why I would do the Ochio Throw without really pushing HCB in sequence. Also explains why I see Chun-Li walking forward and going right into her super. Thanks fellas.
Ive been turboed by people like this b4. At most u can generally only get like 25% damage now assuming the other person mashes out. 50% sounds like turbo button/buttons.
Fatboy your words are pure gold, he’s right go back to the original HD Remix Thread you will see good examples on what should have been done with HDR, I think even without extra animation certain level of enhancement would have been possible an example would be making Ken more like his post-ST self replacing animation of his kicks with the Krazy Kicks frames for example (just an example), many suggested that Honda will be good enough if he had a mixture of New/Old normals + trip guard.
Akuma was shocking cause it proved how simple minded the balancing process was, let him get higher damage…kill the air fb (still very good !!) and let him keep every property except those dreaded semi-invincible low kicks and hey give him a super !!.
I would have thought a more reasonable balance strategy would have been to actually make him like N.Ryu/N.Ken, DP only invincible on early frames…air fb landing recovery (how many people suggested that !) and balanced damage/dizzy power.
HDR is a fun version of SF2 to play, if it wasn’t for the badly designed tweaks (Fielong/T.Hawk/Honda/Chun and Akuma) I dare say HDR would have the perfect replacement for ST.
Heheheh:bgrin: This is possibly the funnest thing in the game for me now.I love getting over-defensive peeps with it right at the start of the round when i have a feeling they’re just gonna block and wait. It’s uber-risky but so worth it when it comes off :tup:
But seriously…
Honda wouldn’t need to lose stored ochio if he were to get a whiff animation. It would still be a trap of sorts, but at least it could be sprung incorrectly. All of the autopilot nonsense really was unnecessary for such a solid defensive house. Christ, just look at him, he eats sticks of butter for breakfast. His profile shot actually looks like he’s going for one.
The real question is…what animation could they recycle as the whiff? Either some part of O.Honda’s c.hp, or an air-hump from his fierce hold (lol) would be workable.
see thats the thing, he cant have stored ochio and no whiff animation when hes already better than hawk. like, nerf hawks 360 (aka his ONLY thing going for him) but let honda who is already a fucking brick wall keep stored ochio, no whiff, and oh we’ll just make him bounce back (which in turn actually helps him in some matches like gief). very cute.
I’ve given up on talking to Sirlin. He gets so defensive over criticism. The only time where he was cool about it was when he explained why Hawk’s DP bug wasn’t removed, which made sense why he didn’t. But then he told me he had more important things to talk about than Hawk’s DP. I bet if it was Honda’s Ochio he would argue to the bone about it. >_>