Rebalancing ST Remix

Yes. The biggest thing Sirlin did was to successfully lobby to get any balance changes made, even possible at all, in the first place. He really doesn’t get thanked enough for that. Sirlin did an outstanding job on the changes themselves overall, especially considering the limitations of Super Turbo. No one could have done a “perfect” job; that’s not his fault. So…thanks for fighting for it, David Sirlin.

Now that we’ve had the benefit of some time to evaluate the state of the game in respect to his original three goals, there are a few specific things that could be addressed. If this is the final version of the game, it’s definitely a great standard to go by. If it takes years, though (if ever), having a compilation of well-reasoned suggestions from the people who play the game competitively the most couldn’t hurt. It’s a testament to the intensity of people’s passion for this venerable game they love…and who knows? I hear SFII’s been rereleased before :lol:

i hate to bump an old topic, but st has been on my mind recently. the game is pretty balanced the way it is now, but theres still some issues (akuma). based on results, ryu and balrog are the clear tournament winners. honda gets more play and results at tournaments now than before but eventually gets decimated by ryu for the most part.

hundred handslap type moves : instead of 3 inputs, it should be 4 and make it pianoable. ex: lp, mp, hp, hp should be able to get you a hp handslap

bison: nothing

deejay: nothing

vega: nothing or make his fake dive drop down almost twice as fast. the fake dive seems pretty useless now except in a few situation

balrog: nothing

ryu: slightly nerf his fake fireball. he was already a beast in vst so i dunno why would he need to be even more powerful with his fake fb. its too good of a rushdown tool. he rushes down fine in vst already.

ken: add a frame or two of recovery to his lp dp but give him back his old knee bash throw range

guile: nothing

sagat: needs the hitbox from vst old sagats tiger shot where the hitbox on his limbs arent as extended as now. also make the second hit of his standing lk bufferable.

fei long: give him back his old lk flame kick from vst. lk chicken wing should be +2 on block, mk and hk chickenwing should give the same blockstun as his vst version.

chun: make her super like it was in vst. also give her back her vst sbk but make it be done with charge back, forward+ kick

t hawk: bring back his old dive, but make it be done with 3 kicks. give him a different sound so opponents can differentiate between the two dives. whiffed command grab should cut its recovery in half

sim: fix the teleport reversal glitch. give him back his head invulnerability on his super

blanka: get rid of the damage penalty when you get hit out of your horizontal ball. more than half the cast can still hit him when his horizontal ball connects even though it should be slightly harder now. that’s fine, but he shouldnt have any damage penalty due to this. besides, its more of a mobility tool than an offensive tool. he still have problems vs most fireball characters. slide should have a lower profile to slide under most projectiles and not just guiles. easiest way is to give him his normals from hyper fighting but that might be an overkill

honda: i seriously don’t know. he still have trouble vs fireball characters and still beats most non fireball characters soundly. i’ll probably nerf the hitbox of his headbutts slightly. give him old honda’s normal. not too sure should the stored ochio stay, but if it doesn’t, he should have his moving handslaps back. if the stored ochio is gone, cut down the whiffed recovery on his new ochio if he should have one. super should have full fireball invulnerablity.

gief: not too sure. either give him longer reaching normals or give his old hf kick lariat back

cammy: faster spin knuckles. fix her standing hk. the thing has almost no reach or priority. other than that, i’m not too sure either.

akuma: reduce his stun ability, reduce the invincibility and damage on his dp, air fireballs takes meter to perform, get rid of his super, he can burn his meter for air fireballs and fix the hitbox on some of his normals and specials.

Chun should be:
VST chun. Remove d/f medium kick move. Make lightning legs easier inputs.

If that’s too strong then reduce damage on lightning legs, but I think super damage and SBK should be left alone.

Why does Sim deserve to have a fully uninteruptable super? And why do all Chun players keep asking for her 80% super back? You guys still get to keep the damn storing ability, just be glad you got that…

Mainly because Chun in VST wasn’t dominant. She was upper mid tier. Chun has never won an Evo, for example. She was pretty on par with Ryu in terms of power imho. Making her inputs easier does raise her power level, as does nerfing Sagat, her worst enemy.

Even with the chun I propose, in HDR, she would still lose to Ryu, Ken, Fei, and Claw.

Questionable or controversial would be Cammy, Blanka, Sagat, Dhalsim, Boxer, Hawk, Dictator, Deejay, Honda.

Wins against Gief and Guile.

This seems like a balanced version of the character to me.

Otochun has won the most ST tourneys in Japan IIRC. I am not making a argument any which way. But, Chun is totally capable of being dominant. Thoughts?

Out of curiosity, why make HHS 4 inputs instead of 3? I personally like 3. I can’t piano hands, and four inputs is where I start to struggle to get cr. short hands to come out consistently.

Turn Blanka’s super into something useful. It is a joke when playing against Shotos/deejay/Chun. If it went through projectiles, it would be a big improvement.

EVO2002:
2nd - Ohnuki (Chun)

EVO2003:
2nd - Ohnuki (Chun)

EVO2005:
2nd - Ohnuki (Chun)
3rd - Tokido (Chun)
5th - Buktooth, NKI (Chuni)

EVO2007:
5th - NKI (Chun)
7th - Ohnuki (Chun)

EVO2008:
2nd - Ohnuki (Chun)

Sure, Chun has never won an EVO, but almost every year that Ohnuki has gone to EVO he has placed second using Chun. At some of the Star Cup events (2006, 2007, and 2008 if I remember correctly) in Japan they limited the amount of the top five characters you could put on a single team. The rule was that you couldn’t field a team that contained three or more of the five best characters. The five best were identified at O.Sagat, N.Dhalsim, N.Boxer, N.Claw, and N.Chun (not in that specific order either). So you couldn’t put more than two of those top five characters on a team and enter the Star Cup tournaments. N.Ryu has never had a rule like that in any tournament.

And yes, while Otochun has won more ST tournaments than anyone else in Japan, it’s probably more of a reflection that he’s been playing Super Turbo since the first week it was out (though he’s still one of the best of all time). Otochun’s also been on two SBO winning teams using Chun. And Ohnuki won AE at SBO using N.Chun the year that SBO hosted AE. So Chun might not have a first place finish at EVO but she’s got three at SBO.

I don’t have any X-Mania winning data off hand but I’m sure that Chun isn’t absent from some of the grand finals. Overall I’d place Chun just outside of the top tier in ST. She might not be on N.Claw, N.Boxer or N.Dhalsim level but she’s close to being just barely in the top tier than being the highest ranked mid tier character in my opinion. In the chart assembled after Arcadia SBO2008 the points for N.Ryu are +15 with N.Chun getting +13.5, a difference of 1.5 points to Ryu. However I think if you factor in O.Sagat, a match that I believe Chun has much easier than Ryu, than Chun comes out on top in overall points.

Either way, in ST, N.Chun and N.Ryu are certainly better than most characters. I think Chun is definitely top tier, and Ryu is the top mid tier character just below her. Now looking back on ST and HDR it’s kind of laughable that Ryu was given only buffs, yet Chun was nerfed possibly more than any other character in the game.

Here are my personal preferences that I believe would help balance Ken and Zangief. I don’t use the other characters, so the changes made to them are what I believe would help even up the matches.

Ken-
-Shorter short hurricane kick (just like Ryu’s). Should help a little in the Guile matchup (man Ken would be so fun with a short hurricane kick).
-Put RH crazy kick somewhere else so you don’t get negative crazy when trying to sweep xx fireball (benefits all matchups)
-Reduce range on fierce DP to what it previously was, but give strong a tiny bit more range.
-Change hitbox on hurricane kicks so it connects with all characters instead of whiffing on some.
-Give him back old knee bash range/damage. Pointless nerf as everyone elses’ holds are a lot more powerful.
-Faster fierce fireball.
Seems like a lot of buffs, but then again Ryu is a lot stronger in general.

Zangief-
-Change green hand motion so it’s not possible to get one if you try to SPD (maybe qcf + 2 punch or DP motion + punch).
-Faster slow lariat or hitbox out for longer. I’m working on the basis that if it’s faster, it has more chance of hitting moves like sumo headbutt and Blanka ball.
-Better hitbox on knee press (down + forward) in order to punish hundred hands more consistently.

Guile-
-Less time to charge Sonic booms. -5 frames for example will help vs Ryu, but increased recovery to offset it +5 frames which benefit Zangief for getting in.

Honda-
-No stored Ochio. Zangief doesn’t have a 1 button SPD, so why should Honda? Also change motion to 360+punch.
-Increase mash rate for Hundred hand slap (maybe not to what it used to be, but make it a little harder to use). HHS still kills a lot of the cast

Boxer-
-Nerf damage on headbutt grab. Should benefit all characters.

Chun Li
-Increase mash rate for lightening legs (like with Honda). Again, may help Zangief a little bit.

That’s about it. Perhaps it seems biased, and I’m sure it is (I’m sure there was some bias with Honda’s changes and Sirlin, I mean why didn’t blanka get a fireball safe roll?), but with the current remix changes, these applied on top, I believe Ken will have a lot more even matchups, and Zangief’s shit matchups won’t be as bad.

I haven’t considered how these changes will affect other matchups, so maybe these changes would really fuck up the balance!

ST+ Chun would rape HDR Dhalsim prison style…IMO.

Start with VST:

Replace N. Claw with HDR Claw
Replace N. Sagat with HDR Sagat, and give O. Sagat the same fireball properties as HDR Sagat, if not just a hair better (he keeps the more cancelable standing short though, and does not have the juggling knee). Also, I would love the option of using the old Tiger Knee motion. Maybe have it activated by either TK motion or DP motion? I dunno. It’s minor, but something I always wanted back.
Replace N. Boxer with HDR Boxer
Replace N. Ken with HDR Ken

Everyone else, I like in VST. Maybe some minor fringe tweaks to some of the lower cast, but I like the way VST plays, so while Cammy (just as an example) definitely needed something to boost her up, I don’t like the way HDR forces her to play so vastly different from where she was in VST. Fei and Hawk I don’t play enough to have an educated opinion on, but my gut (which listens to Hawk players) says to leave out the whiff and add in some bounceback on the typhoon.

I saw NKI go on a 50+ game win streak with Chun in casuals at Final Round 2009. That’s just one data point, but he was trashing all comers.

Still perplexed by whatever logic was behind completely buffing the mid-tier characters (DeeJay, Dictator, Guile, Ken except for knee bash), yet changing fundamentals of how most of the bottom-tier play (Fei Long, Cammy, T.Hawk) instead. Gief was the one low-tier character who got a real quality treatment. Cammy and Fei Long now have more problems than before with getting through good fireball >> sweep/DP traps, despite other changes that benefited them.

T.Hawk, in particular, actually got worse in HDR from ST. How? His changes were mostly fixing issues that affected several members of the cast (though not his most obvious DP reversal bug, WTF). Everything that he used at his highest levels is effectively worse, except possibly his new dive on Dhalsim and unwary Dictators. Making his fierce DP connect fully more often doesn’t change anything about the positions you’d be in to use it in the first place. Couple this with the fact that many of his matches got much worse (Ken, Guile, Dictator in particular), and it’s evident that, though still potent, T.Hawk could have used some more juice in a few areas. It wasn’t a bad idea to make him less about being so necessary to get in yet impossible to shake; it’s just that, to compensate for this, he should have received better tools than merely easier inputs and global issue fixing to round him out. So here’s a synopsis:

Ground normals/pokes: Excellent except for the loss of the range N.Hawk had on st.rh. He should have his red hitbox extended all the way to his heel as before while keeping the ability to hit some crouching opponents low. Great for stuffing telegraphed fireballs and such, much better to punish many missed moves (psycho crusher, etc), still too slow and relatively low priority even after the increase compared to so many normals and specials that it would absolutely not be overpowered. (compare to Vega’s st.mk, now that move is sickness.) This would help to further differentiate him and Gief, giving Hawk better tools out to midrange. Gief, by the way, would still have his sweep and lariats to handle this effectively.

Air normals/safe jumps: So many cross-up possibilities, high priority options…very good here. Would be nice to see an ever-so-slight extension on j.rh, but otherwise wouldn’t consider changing a thing.

Throws: All good. Strong is good to get them to a corner fast. Roundhouse is so great for cross-up setups. Fierce…well, it does slightly more damage than roundhouse. Of course, his 360 is best, and should be used the most often.

Rising Hawk/DP: It’s balanced extremely well as-is. The invincibility frames are enough to go through faster fireballs, and even beat most reversals and later parts of supers when timed correctly. Good range without being ridiculous. Hitbox is solid; not overbearing against anyone who telegraphs it due to the move’s recovery. Recovery isn’t bad, though; easy to punish with sweeps, but fast enough to 360 someone off-guard when you land close. So basically it has plenty of invulnerability already, good range and recovery, and since it is the #1 easiest way to set up his BS without already being on top of your opponent, it really can’t be buffed outwardly (either by expanding red or reducing blue hitboxes). One idea would be to have his red hitbox go to the floor while he’s still squatting; the only characters it would really affect are the small ones like Cammy who beat him anyway, and even then only when they screw up and are trying to poke you from way too close (but not enough so to get 360ed). It wouldn’t change anything on any character who is blocking or even poking from proper distance. Oh…AND THE REVERSAL BUG CAN/MUST BE FIXED.

Condor Dive: The safe on block one sucks against fireballers far too often, as it lands on them even after a successful hit (wtf?). Even worse, now you have to worry about coming in from too high, as most characters can hit you back on block or hit, which wasn’t even a problem before! Couple all with his lack of range on his st.rh that N.Hawk had in ST, make him actually worse against several characters overall (though much more practical standing 360s help, they weren’t impossible before). One or two frames faster startup is about the only fair thing to allow him to better catch people off-guard and not get it just jabbed to death instantly, as well as to give him a slightly better chance of actually getting anywhere near Ken or Guile. It would be almost imperceptibly faster, but any more than that would be unfair since it?s safe on block, even when so many other moves cleanly beat this. He should also at the very least receive his old dive back as KKK (or mp+mk/hp+hk like Gief’s lariats). Ideally it could also be totally unsafe on block, but land closer than in ST. (And totally safe on hit, not counting direct trades.) The idea is that your opponent definitely wants to block this move, so you can mix in more of the new dive to chip away and stay decently close, or guess correctly and get in. To further aid/balance the move, it should have a different grunt, and possibly even hang longer in the air for 3-4 frames. This would make it very telegraphed to a patient opponent, but allow him to play some great mind games along with the other dive to them, baiting moves and such. Imagine playing against Honda and getting in the air over the top slightly in front of him. He could guess that you are going to dive and get ready to reversal headbutt. He sees you start the dive animation and responds…surprise! You hang in the air for a split second longer, just enough to avoid his invulnerable frames, and trade or even come down clean onto him. (Of course, if it had a different grunt, he should be listening for it instead of just watching for the animation, heh.) Since he’s not quite as scary when inside now (though still very much a powerhouse), this makes more sense, especially since both dives would have the same relatively weak hitboxes which still get beaten easily when reacted to properly.

Storm Hammer/360: If E.Honda were to lose stored Ochio, there would be no reason to add a single active grab frame to him. Pianoing the input allows Hawk to cancel from his whiff animation into a real throw just like Gief now, so he?s still got a solid throw setup game?just not as safe as before. Since Sirlin decided to balance Hawk to be less centered around getting in or losing, coupled with the fact that it?s already damned hard to get him out once he?s in, he really doesn?t need to be any better once he?s there. What he needs are better (yet fair) ways of getting in, and tools to allow him to have a decent game before he gets there (which he pretty much has already, fortunately).

Super: Perfection.

Whew! We’ve had plenty of time to play HDR to death, and I’m fortunate enough to be in Japan and get good matches in with some damned good players. Had plenty of time to put Hawk through the paces, so thank you to anyone reading this who has played some sets together with me (and tolerated the lag if you’re Stateside). I LOVE playing T.Hawk, but yeah, it’s definitely a real grind against you when your opponent knows how to play against him; you can definitely feel some of his shortcomings. Any feedback is welcomed and encouraged. But enough about that with T.Hawk. Regarding some of the things mentioned recently:

-Ken’s and Dhalsim’s respective holds got nerfed for two reasons.

  1. They were easy to mindlessly repeat when they already have a very solid game not dependent on them (shenanigans).
  2. Having holds with the same range as their other throws made the throws almost obsolete (poor design).

Boxer’s headbutt was also a victim of #1; too powerful for being so easy to repeat. Blanka’s wasn’t changed because it’s very much a part of his core game plan, and it’s harder to repeat. So these changes might not be something you’d agree with initially, but the reasoning behind them is sound. The most important reason to make changes is to further promote balance, right? (Just don’t ask Chunners about it.)

Yeah because its not like boxer still outhrows half the cast anyways.

I’m starting to play ST on GGPO now more often, and I’ve gotta say that the biggest difference is the input windows. I feel that they are too small in ST, but too large in HDR.

EDIT: yes I know they are random in ST

IMO, I’d rather have the better knee bash than a better fierce DP, but oh well. Still pissed about the nerf, and while I appreciate what you say, am not convinced it has made much difference balance wise. Regarding the throw ranges, good point, but even if they were the same, throws would not be obsolete as I use them as a method to position opponents around the screen (eg to get them into a corner, or to get me out).

i always felt that 3 inputs was pretty scrubby, there are a lot of times i accidently get a move to come out when i mean to throw/tech throw.

why shouldn’t sim keep his head invincibility? he already have a myraid of spotty anti airs yet has no true anti air.

as for chun, why not give her back her old super? that was what made chun vs ryu managable in vst. now in hdr, not only did her super got weaker, ryu’s fake fireball makes that match even more lopsided. i dont mind if they reduce the damage like balrogs, but not being able to get 2 hits of the up kicks in after the super is extremely lame. either make her super do full damage like in vst and one hit followup from the up kicks or make less damaging like the current build but keep her 2 hit juggle.

i’m sorta glad that chun got raped in hdr. she was a super whore in vst. flipping neckbreaker crossup is complete bullshit.

i rather have ken keep his knee bash than give him that ultra scrubby little to no recovery jab dp. shit is just ridiculous at times. besides, ken has to get in for to get the knee bash going. and ken being ken, its not always easy trying to get in.

How do you get hands when you try to negative edge Ochio? XP

Sirlin’s rationale for the head invulnerability was sound. It is incredibly hard to jump over Sim’s super. If you manage to do that, you should be able to hit him out. Hell, if you manage to get on the other side, you should be able to throw him out of it too, something you couldn’t do in VST. As for “spotty anti-airs”, I’m fairly complexed by that. He has some of the best normal anti-airs in the game.

I wouldn’t mind if she got both upkicks after super (Dee Jay got to keep his, right?), but something had to bring her in line with the rest of the cast super damage-wise. It was a smart decision to bring it down, especially considering her getting to keep the stored super (something I personally don’t think should be in the game).

She wouldn’t need stored super nearly as much if it just went through fireballs through the first part; Sirlin’s initial instincts on this were actually not bad at all. Totally agree with you about lower damage, but still having the ability to do upkicks (so slightly more damage overall than HDR, but less than VST if both kicks connect). Seems totally odd that DeeJay and Dictator kept their juggles just fine, but the character who depended on them most had it nerfed. The only other stored move that would be left really needs to go, damn Honda’s safe auto-throw.

Also +1 for:

Blanka not having a damage penalty on horizontal ball

Fei Long having his original short flame kick back

An Akuma overhaul

Ken, by the way, can get in pretty easily when he wants to. Incredibly fast hurricane kick, nearly invincible SRKs with great recovery, air fierce xx tatsu advantage, a great slow fireball to control space, and a great sweep go a long way towards him getting wherever he wants in a match. His other improvements really outweigh the one thing he lost (which also made sense from a design perspective, as stated previously by Sirlin). Gives you a reason for any non-grappler character to actually want to use the other throws besides trying to tech out of one.