Yeah everyone pretty much ran a train on you. 
If the police ask, you better tell them it was consensual… :nono:
I’m with the majority regarding the PC discussion. HELL NO!
But hey!
Even if your ass is sore for the next 3 days, no hard feelings!
lol you would think bison would have more invincible moves than everyone too.
“youre no match for my psyco power”
I’ll never let goooo…
ive played with mavrick enough(like 4 times lol) in the 4 months ive been playing to know bison doesnt need an invulnerable reversal other than what hes got in DR(which is mostly for fireballs if im not mistaken).
Simple(once/if you get a good, deep enough hit) ToD combos are good enough trade for no vertical hitbox reversal.
Yeah, sorry for all that, but you’re focusing on knocking dictator down, you also have to take into account his j.mp, jump straight up mp, safe scissors, throw range, TODs(we covered this), DR/Stomp switchups, Stomp with no followup/followup, st.hk, st.lk, and his super does allow him to reverse off a knockdown.
Dude is an offensive, extremely mobile BEAST, so when you do catch him, he needs to be at a serious disadvantage.
he’s basically balanced by weights the furthest they can get from the middle of the see-saw.
lands an ambiguous cross up = likely round win
gets knocked down = likely round loss
Well even then some character’s lock him down better than others. Gotta be careful too since his throw range is so damn big. He’ll just throw you in the corner and then run away.
I think all of the posts between your original post and this one perfectly illustrate the reasons why Dictator is the way he is. TIFunkalicious hit it on the head perfectly.
I mean…really…in Vanilla ST, Dictator was just about top tier at the very least…and he didn’t have any reliable reversal besides his super. That alone tells me that there aren’t very many lockdown tactics that he doesn’t have ample chance to avoid completely by not being there. From there, Sirlin dealt with the one tactic that he does tend to lose to…meaty projectiles that start zoning games. (See Sirlin’s Intermediate ST Tutorial with Ryu pounding Dictator with Hadoukens.) In the end, that made him a more rounded character and helped him stay competitive given the buffs to some other characters.
imo, the reversal devil reverse was the best buff implemented in hdr.
that was just the move bison needed and is not a one shot solution to everything.
feis lk chickenwing kick is also a nice buff but dunno is it worth losing his safe flame kick and huge frame advantage over his other chickenwing kicks
You have to be extremely cautious of these types of changes. The only way to fix trip guard in this game is to make a move that just hits really far horizontally outwards so it can catch Ryu and Ken’s BODY. For the most part, because of the way the characters LAND, I don’t think you can tweak the hitboxes lower enough to make it hit Sweeps. You might be able to make the hitbox hit REALLY low, but that’s the only way to solve it.
Regardless, either solution is REALLY buff. I’ve heard that Bison has not a move that can hit Honda Jumping Backwards in the corner with Short anymore, thanks to the even slightly altered Jumping Short hitbox (if people could confirm this for me, I’d greatly appreciate it). Think of it this way, if you made Hondas hit box slightly bigger, it might get to a point where Honda can do a free meaty Jump Short against a wake-up Blanka. Time it so he gets up RIGHT before you reach him, and the hitbox of the Short butt drop might cover the proper range so Blanka cannot Reversal at all.
Fixing Trip Guard in ST is impossible given the way the game was written. The only way to do it would be to really alter some really wide-scoped universal game mechanic, which is WAY too risky. I think there are other very elegant solutions to solving Honda’s trip-guard problem that have nothing to do with making him able to avoid sweeps on Jumps. It’s a weakness of his, you can make up for it in many other ways.
And herein lies the problem with Honda’s changes: when he gets in, he’s more deadly than before… doesn’t that mean the characters who can only beat Honda by getting in on Honda are totally F-ed in the A? How are those characters expected to win when some of the best buffs that Honda got were in the area that the non-Fireball characters needed to be? Honda’s improvements needed to be made from FAR RANGE and his nerfs should have been made to when he’s IN CLOSE.
Again, you’re only thinking of this in terms of wake-ups. Moves with invincibility that hit before they can be hit (which is essentially what you are asking for) mean they can OVERRIDE other attacks. Bison could become a super effective turtle this way. If you see Honda charge, you can PC on reaction and win. If Zangief Jumps at you, you could PC and win. And on and on. And then at any given moment, he can Scissor Kick you with a super potent offense. There’s simply no other way to explain it better. A wake-up Reversal move MUST BE LOOKED AT in other situations. The only way to implement it how it could be fair is to make him like Darkstlkers 1 Bishamon, where his Uppercut move could ONLY be done as a Reversal.
Just so you know, one of Bison’s ToD Combos is Jump Roundhouse, Low Forward, Fierce Psycho Crusher. Which is just about the most basic Combo that is possible in ST. One Fireball prediction and you can win a whole Round. I hope you aren’t referring to that as the “hard” Combo.
- James
I’d have nightmares if Psycho Crusher had invincible frames.
Couldn’t they just make PC (fierce, or whatever) have the invincible frames ONLY when it qualifies as a reversal, off the ground? I dunno jack about the programming of all this mumbo-jumbo, I just don’t like him not having anything off the ground, where everyone else does (and I still don’t think he doesn’t have it because of ToDs).
and yeah I wasn’t refering to the roundhouse into ToD, more the forward into it… I have a jacked up internet connection on the army base in Hawaii AND I’m on psn so doing anything over 3 hit combos is not where I am atm lol… and it honestly doesn’t seem like most of the guys I’ve played or seen play Bison are on that level either… yet??
[media=youtube]1oXI2yjObGA&feature=related[/media]
1:34. Bison has plenty of options without a reversal. If you get knocked down you deserve it dude, fair and square. He’s all risk-reward. You don’t know all of his options otherwise you wouldn’t suggest a reversal PC.
Edit: Dhalsim doesn’t really have anything off of the ground either.
They both have super. That’s about it.
This one doesn’t dizzy very often, in my experience. I used to use it almost exclusively, but I wanted a better “bang for my accurate prediction” so to speak so now I’m learning his other TODs, which are more difficult technically but get you that dizzy.
Excellent points James. I was actually thinking about this today, and was about to compare Honda’s j.Short hitbox scan with his hitbox video, but you answered it for me. I should’ve done that before posting actually. I still think it’s a good idea though, buffing Honda’s j.Short tripguard just enough if only to beat Ryu and Ken’s max range sweeps but not Dhalsim and DJ’s max range slides. Honda has a harder time vs Ryu and Ken than DJ or Dhalsim IMO, so I find that acceptable.
The only thing I wouldn’t find acceptable, is extending Ryu and Ken’s vulnerable hitbox on their sweeps as an alternate solution to buffing Honda’s j.Short tripguard. If that happens, then they won’t be able to beat Dhalsim, DJ and Claw’s slides, and they need that in those matchups. Especially considering Dhalsim and Claw are already difficult matchups for both of them, that wouldn’t be fair to Ryu or Ken.
As for Dictator being unable to anti air Honda’s j.Short, he already has a hard time vs the Fatman’s aerial attacks. As it is now, I don’t even bother doing j.Strong juggles vs Honda’s j.Short. I block it and try to reversal throw his Oichio attempt, but I try not to let Honda get the initiative on me in the 1st place. Also, wakeup Devil’s Reverse is an excellent solution to a lot of Honda’s meaty attacks, especially meaty slaps (guaranteed escape with reversal DR).
Plus, if you combine my other solution to help non fireballers vs Honda, an unsafe on block Torpedo that Dictator can reversal Fierce Psycho Crusher, I think that Dictator players wouldn’t mind such a tradeoff IMO (I don’t).
But I understand what you’re trying to say. Such a fullblown tripguard may have other repurcussions, such as stuffing Dhalsim’s pokes. I understand that. But I think with lots of testing and tweaking it could’ve been done.
Oh yeah, definitely. that would have been the worst solution humanly possible: completely changing all of Ryu and Ken’s match-ups to just help Honda? I was just saying it’d be the only other way to make Honda avoid Trip Guard.
Yeah, it’s tricky with ST. Later games escape a lot of problems because they added “states” and “categories” and shit. For example, in SFIV, to make things easier, they just made some movies with the property of “Projectile Invincibility” and made certain moves categorized as “projectiles.” In ST, EVERYTHING is dependent on these hit boxes. Not only that, but EVERY MOVE is limited to three hit boxes at most, I’m pretty sure. So it’s not like you can get all crafty and fancy with hit boxes that create weird angles and shit. Frankly, ST’s engine was NOT built for the kind of detail needed for the game. They had no clue how detailed the game would get, and this is probably the #1 reason why most of the things Sirlin did are what he did. Trust me, if Sirlin could have done a lot of more fancy things like giving moves Juggernaut ability or Projectile Invincibility, etc, he would have. But the ST engine simply does not support these things.
So I honestly think that tweaking and testing hit boxes is actually a much tougher road than it would originally seem.
- James
I heard RC PC owns. I wouldn’t know because I play K-Groove because I can’t RC. I also suck at JD so I get my guard broken a lot. :’’ (
Ah ok. I’ll be the 1st to admit that I have no idea what’s involved in balancing, designing or programming a game like SF2. Even though creating this wishlist thread was mainly to keep discussion about the game alive, it’s also fun to play backseat designer sometimes. But yeah, it’s easy to forget we have the benefit of hindsight and almost a year’s worth of competitive gaming that Sirlin didn’t have. I’m definitely happy with the overall changes though.