Does anyone think that it is way out there if everyone had a neutral jump fierce/roundhouse that moved forward a-la Boxer? It allows certain advantages (might help Honda, others vs FBers). Good boxers do use it a lil, when pressured and I think it helps out enough and it is not really a mindblowing change.
Also, since Guile is basically mid tier, would it be soo far out of wack to give him back his hb fierce backfist (so he can keep charge). Is it really that bad a thing, given the current play styles and Guile’s ranking? I mean I’m all about every char getting things to make them move competative, but not making them abusive. This seems like a change that isn’t that big a deal, but really allows Guile to keep doing what he is meant to do and has done before. Besides being able to do this in champ edition, what else made him soo godly? Was it his pure damage output also?
JN: I don’t think it would be unstoppable for Bison. Unstoppable means that he is thrust beyond Boxer and Claw in the rankings (this would put him around Chun’s level) and I seriously do not see that happening with just this change…
It is totally unnecessary, and would homogenize (can we make “blandify” a word for this?) the cast. Honda can already do this better than Boxer can.
What specific matches or areas do you see Guile really lacking in? He got nothing but buffs from ST to HDR. Changing things without reasoning or rationale is the last thing the developers would want to do.
You just proved that you have zero concept of how the game operates at any kind of higher level, because if you had such an idea, you’d know how absolutely insane your suggested change would make Dictator. Please don’t just take every random idea you have about the game and post it. It’s hard enough to get anyone to pay real attention to this subject even when the discourse is reasonably explained.
There is a reason that Dictator was given only 2 frames of invincibility on his Devil’s Reverse, instead of choosing the Psycho Crusher. Keep in mind that he was in the top tier (debatably juuuuust outside of high tier at the very lowest) in Vanilla ST. I think Sirlin made the right call on that one.
Dictator doesn’t need a reversal to ToD you. I know this all too well because I love his combos.
Ok if Honda is doing this better why is the complaint department for Honda getting over fireballs STILL on-going? I honestly don’t think all chars need it, but Cammy and Fei are two I think do and no it wouldn’t make chars more alike in a bad way. Guile is not lacking, per-say, but he will never leave mid tier. This particular suggestion was just a random thought as I watched vids with champ Guile and was thinking what made him top and compared him to today’s version in the current meta.
On to Bision… Reasonably explained? I did explain it. Perfectly! I just don’t see how giving him a FIERCE ONLY reversal would OMGTHISISBS his whole game plan. It would allow him to more reliably get out from under people and do a bit of damage (if your timing is SPOT), so that he can reposition himself in a neutral corner, where the match standing can, in a way, reset and people can start the mindgames again. This change DOESN’T really affect his abiliity to ToD anyone. Again I am not proposing a jab reversal. Yeah I KNOW: jab PC, follow up ambigious crossup, into round 2…? I am not stating that. On this topic in general the burden of proof would be in your court, because my explaination is fine and you have not really said HOW a FIERCE reversal would be so mindblowing. Honestly I don’t think Sirlin thought “hey maybe I could just make his fierce reverse so that he can be like almost all the other chars and get a reversal based off of a main agressive move, just not set up the crossup”. Didn’t know I needed to be in the know from 1994, went to tournament Y, X and Z and be able to draw you the hitboxes of every char (besides Hawk) to be able to give a example AND provide evidence on WHY it is acceptable. I hope Capcom isn’t watching!!
You don’t get it, dictator’s horrible defense makes up for his 1 hitter quitter offense. He’s solid on offense, with the additional abilty to hit you with an ambiguous crossup, that then can lead into TOD. If he gets another free out from the corner, he would be what like top 3?
Honestly the one hitter quitter is NOT a good enough reason. The MAJORITY of people who play this game (the 50 or so lol), can’t do a ToD nor can they do two, online mind you! If at the HIGHEST eschelon this change makes him top 3, then so be it. You got two other bosses up there with MUCH more reliable ways to kill you (and defend) and Boxer can ToD you also, but how often do you REALLY see that in match play? Not often, again, especially ONLINE. Again theory fighter < real matches.
and yeah I’ve seen the ToD’s over and over by the .8 % who can do them in high level match play on a CONSISTENT basis.
So we should make him broken for tourneys just so scrubs can get out of the corner? If that’s the case, I want all of ken’s srks unblockable, and invulnerable from start to finish.
The thing I think I overlooked by making PC reverse is how it affects the fireball trap. Maybe it would be too powerful being that it would allow him to get out of that too easily AND do damage. I was more thinking in terms of cross up attacks, not really the fb trap. My issues aren’t with the FB trap, but a fierce FC would be too much in that event. Maybe make it the jab instead, but ohh no the ever looming ToD would be itching to begin the round anew and he’d be Honda’s CLONE! The current answer was a good try by Sirlin, but it still sux. Why not a few more frames of invin on the DR, as S says it makes him commit to a move (which it still would). I’m sure Sirlin tried to work it as best as possible, but it still is not good enough, imo.
Edit: I’d think it fair and inline with Bison’s playstyle if fierce PC had the same properties as Honda’s fierce torpedo, when evading a crossup attempt, but doesn’t cancel/go through fireballs, while in a corner trap.
Just stop Jamie. I’ve played loads of people that can pull of His ToD’s (myself included). Reversal fierce PC would demolish everyone. The fact that you’re even considering it being put into the game shows you know nothing about SF.
Edit: DR is perfect the way it is. People complain that even that is to powerful. You have no idea how to use it if you say otherwise.
The one about Honda’s jab headbutt actually ending when it hits a fireball? Sorry man, but others already made the point against this earlier. It would have him get in even less often against fireballers (bad), and do nothing to tone it down at all against non-fireballers (also bad). It’s cool that you provide some explanations for your changes, but in this case it doesn’t seem to provide a direct and sensible answer to any of Honda’s overall problems.
Regarding ToD combos…about 50% of the Dictators I play against can ToD regularly. I can do it, and I don’t main him. It’s not enough to see a situation that’s not perfect for a character, then to try to make that character able to overcome it every time. Chun Li’s a perfect example. She could use a few more invulnerable frames on an SBK so that she has a slightly better chance of trading hits out of a corner. This would leave her hurt, but not ever completely safe if she gets cornered. Giving her upkicks properties like DeeJay’s, on the other hand, would be much “better” for her, but would take away some of her unique style. There is no perfect character, and it needs to stay this way.
I bow to your all encompassing skill and knowledge, as it apparently dEmoLisHhhes EVERYONE. Joking aside, I think the domination 101 forum has the appropriate response to guys who are always saying how easy it is to do all the moves, yet we don’t see them happening… when it COUNTS that is. Doesn’t Balrog have similiar set ups to dizzy and end the round, but he is instead winning with just consistent play? Let the high level HDR match videos prove me wrong about performing ToDs on a consistent basis (enough to warrant all these thoughts of grandeur, which being even a noob dictator will encourage), then my insistence about the fierce PC (which basically has NOTHING to do with ToD, as I explained it) will fall to the wayside.
Why fight when Bison has already Fierce -reversal- Psycho Crushed into ToD, FTW?
Dictator could already play keep away well enough in VST to keep himself out of situations where his lack of an invincible special move could be taken advantage of (i.e. the corner). That’s why he was given a non-hitting reversal special move to escape those situations.
Read the article Sirlin wrote on the changes he made to Dictator for HDR. He explains it perfectly.
I would also recommend that you read this thread from start to finish so that you can see some of the reasons why your suggestions are not good ones.
Boxer’s ToD’s aren’t incredibly easy to set-up like Dictator’s. Hell, Boxer’s can’t even cross-up against most of the cast.
Fierce PC will make it pretty much impossible to jump in on Dictator. How often do you jump in on Honda? Yeah, thought so. Pretty much everyone without a fireball will be totally f’d, and even those who do have them will have a hard time. Dictator will become the best person in the game. YJDK
Not to be a douche, but I’ve actually seen it plenty of times.
Not that I know of. Boxer does not have any meterless ambiguous cross ups. I don’t even think he has a meterless 50%.
What everyone on the board is arguing is that reversal PC in addition to his ToDs would be too powerful. They aren’t arguing that the two are related, but the fact that the two combined would give him a dramatic boost in the tier list.
What?
Also, if anything, out of all PCs to give invincibility, I feel like fierce PC would be the worst one to choose since it would be a get out of the corner free card.
I mean, I like the idea and the theory behind your suggestion, but at the same time my theory fighting tells me that reversal PC (any) would be too good.
Very excellent point. Completely agreed. Even the top tier characters are there mostly because exceptionally skilled players take their character’s design to the highest level and show what that character is capable of in the right hands. Before EVO 09, I didn’t think Honda could place top 8, or that Fei could consistently beat a highly skilled Honda, but Thelo and Sirlin proved me wrong. And you know what? It’s actually very inspiring. Their performances completely inspired me, and makes me want to use Fei and Honda more. :karate:
I just really think there is no solid reason that Bision doesn’t have a reversal, like almost every other char, that gets him out from under people when they try to cross him after a knockdown. Maybe a PC of any sort would be (and I don’t like using the term here) unbalanced and not the right move, as many have pointed out. Yeah he can stay mid/upper mid with what he has now and still give people trouble, but it just seems he, by all rights, should have something to do there instead of block… but maybe not eh? Even Dhalsim can teleport!!
In the end, are we saying that if no-one had a reversal that Bision would stand in the top 3 because his offense is just soo mesmerizing? If that is true, fine he doesn’t and shouldn’t have it…
Considering how Dictator runs around like a maniac while bombarding his opponent for the majority of the fight, a knock down on Dictator is very fair. DR is extremely capable of giving Dictator other options instead of just blocking. The super is always there too.
