Rebalancing ST Remix

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
701

nope, your logic is not the same as mine.

i even suggested a couple nerfs to honda in exchange for the one buff i said(that would have absolutely no affect on non fireballers MUs)in a previous post.

if you read them that is:blush:

i feel like youre telling me to shut up, rather than saying its a bad idea(which i think it may help honda alot and not make the shoto v honda MUs not so campy).

also, if he did get the cancelable jab headbutt on fireball connect it would maybe build no super meter or next to nothing?

702

I kind of disagree on making Torpedo unsafe on block. Basically I think it’s a great idea (especially since jab torpedo risk reward is amazingly skewed in most cases) except I think it would change the Honda vs. Boxer match up. I feel like Honda wouldn’t have a way to get in on Boxer if torpedoes were unsafe. If you could somehow make it safe against Boxer only, though, I’m all for it.

703

unsafe torpedo sounds really retarded and would make honda THE worst character in the game

704

No you’re right we should even out honda’s disadvantaged matchups, and let the fei and cammy and hawk and gief keep their disadvantaged matchups.

705

never said that.

youre a moron.

im done sudo arguing with you as you obviously dont read my posts.

706

You said evening honda’s bad matchups isn’t the same logic as evening another character’s bad matchups.

707

I wouldn’t say that. I actually thought about that for a while until I realized that that would just make Boxer that much better. On my way to school today I was thinking about Blanka Ball versus Honda’s Fatpedo. I don’t play Blanka that much, but from what I can tell, Rorpedo is a super better version of Blanka Ball (except in terms of recovery).

Pros:
Blanka Ball: Good recovery
Torpedo: Knocks down, start up invincibility, safe on block, anti-air

Cons:
I just realized I was going to invert my pros list.

Anyway, the point is, why does Blanka get stuck with crappy Blanka Ball and Honda gets a move that’s extremely versatile. So in my mind the choice was to either nerf torpedo or buff blanka ball.

Edit:

708

Hell I still don’t get why Dic doesn’t get reversal PC. Sirlin said it made him too much like Honda, I heard? If that was so, how is having the current “playable” Akuma not a worse idea than have a little overlap in terms of movelists. I mean ya got Ken/Ryu/Akuma and to a degree Sagat and Chun who all have basically the same moves. Dic wants the rev PC and he wants it soon :-p

709

Oof. That would be uncool. I think, for the most part, it’s because the lack of a good reversal move and anti-air is a big part of Dictator’s play style. To give him that option would dramatically change his match ups.

710

Then you need to nerf his TOD’s and his dizzy.

711

It makes him more competitive overall in the matches. I can’t think of a really good reason he, theoretically, wouldn’t have it. Yeah I’d change him, but for his own good and not soo much to where he’s all of a sudden “omg bison is soo cheesy” good. Ok Bision is an agressive all or nothing char, but that doesn’t denote that when he’s down and out (on teh floor waiting for someone to cross him up), he’s not going to bust out his Crusher to change the flow to his favor. In terms of his personality AND the sake of “balance” he should be able to do it. Would it propel him into top tier? Probably yes, but all the other bosses are higher than him and they all have agressive reversals, but the king of agression has a weak ass run away, fly in the sky, maybe land it reversal. It makes no sense in the world of ST brass tax.

712

Maybe only his fierce can reversal (so that he lands on the other side of the screen), so he cant reverse on a jab and jump in for a cross up himself. It then becomes a more reliable AND agressive move, but doesn’t allow him to go straight into a crossup as it still is an escape move. If you do this you don’t need to nerf his dizzy or TODs

713

You can edit your posts or use the multiquote button to avoid multiple posting.

Also, we (myself included) seem to be hitting the theory fighting pretty hard today. What’s up with that? :lol:

714

Sirlin did have some good reasons for not fully buffing Honda’s j.Short tripguard. But I think in hindsight that it should have been a fullblown tripguard and not the one we currently have. Obviously Sirlin wanted to be careful not to make Honda too good, and I commend his conservatism, but Honda NEEDS this, especially vs fireballers. As it is now, the tripguard is only good vs Guile’s cr.Forward at any range and Ryu and Ken’s sweep at mid range. Everything else trips him: Ryu and Ken’s sweep at max range, DJ’s slide and Dhalsim’s slide.

Making the tripguard good vs these attacks will not hurt those characters at all. Ryu and Ken have Shoryukens, Tatsus and jump attacks if Honda jumps from mid range. DJ has st.Roundhouse and jump attacks. Dhalsim has any limb he chooses to use. Guile already cannot beat the tripguard with a low poke, so he doesn’t change. Sagat’s sweep I’m not so sure of since I rarely use him, but he has his Uppercut, Knee, st.Fierce, st.Roundhouse and jump attacks, so I think he’ll be fine too.

As for Honda vs low tiered non fireballers, I think an unsafe on block Torpedo would have been the best option. Before you hit the “reply with flames” button, hear me out. I’m not talking about so unsafe on block that Ryu’s reversal Fierce Hadoken will catch him, or Sagat’s reversal Fierce/Roundhouse Tiger Shot either. I’m talking about just safe enough on block to block those reversal attacks, since I don’t want Honda any worse vs fireballers than he already is.

If you go character by character, the only attacks that I think would’ve caught such an unsafe Torpedo, would have been Dictator’s reversal Fierce Crusher, Boxer’s reversal Rush, Fei’s reversal Fierce Rekka and Blanka’s reversal Fierce H Roll. Basically everything that can punish a blocked Blanka Roll now would’ve punished such an unsafe Torpedo.

Out of all those characters, the only one that gives me concern is Boxer’s Rush. But it’s not that Honda has such a difficult time vs Boxer anyway. In fact, that matchup is pretty close to even already, so I think that’s acceptable IMO.

As for the rest of the low tiered non fireballers like Zangief, Cammy and Hawk who can’t punish it, it will help them to get positioning vs Honda same as vs Blanka. That, plus an unstoreable Oichio would’ve helped maybe not a lot, but better than what we currently have. I don’t think any other nerfs to Honda would’ve helped these characters while still keeping Honda strong vs fireballers.

715

edit: nm, i misunderstood

716

Not to belabor this too much, but that Ryu was doing a bunch of dumb things like jumping at Honda a lot. If you watch the video Megaman posted earlier of him playing vs Choi, or if you watch the vids from top 8 at Evo 2k8 and watch how Valle/Choi completely shut down Kusumondo you’ll get a better idea of how lopsided the match is.

In HDR, Honda’s improved super and being able to cancel cr.LK into HHS more easily helps him. His LP headbutt and better jump short also help him a little bit, but not much. On the flip side, Ryu’s fake fireball helps him zone even better. The main problem is that if Ryu does his job well and zone Honda out, then Hondas buffs never come into play.

So yes, if Honda gets in, he’s more deadly than he used to be. But a good Ryu will rarely let that happen. In practice, this means that a mid~high level Ryu vs Honda match will look more competitive. But at top level play, Ryu shuts down Honda hard.

717

I hit Sim out of his slide ALL the time with Honda’s jumping lk. I don’t even remember the last time I got hit out of it. It also seems to go 50/50 with DJ’s slide, which is better than what I experienced in ST.

718

So it seems the recoil on honda’s hitboxes mess up rekkas from a distance.

719

Shotos have to hit Honda’s j.lk with the tip of the sweep (the part with no blue hitbox) to be effective, but yeah, I wouldn’t mind if the fat man had even more help here. Even if were just a few pixels to either side, it would really only affect the fireballers (as long as it doesn’t get extended lower).

Sirlin has stated in these forums (somewhere, don’t have the link off the top) that making at least jab headbutt unsafe on block would have been a very practical answer. It doesn’t even need any more recovery, so much as just not pushing Honda off as far. If this were to connect through a fireball, he would also still be in a bit more, which Honda could certainly use. If you were to use it blindly though, you’d risk punishment more often. It fits his defensive flavor, rewards you for using him intelligently, and serves to be a slight buff against fireballers as well as a way for non-fireballers to punish him. The only real debate to be had over it would be if all versions of his headbutt should get the same treatment in some degree (universal, scaled to button strength, or only jab).

Stored Oicho needs to go. Even without the ability to store it, you could be safe on the attempt with negative edge. You’d just lose your charge for a split second (oh no, risk!), and if you really screwed up and timed it late you might get hit during the motion. All of the set-up tricks off of ticks, HHS, and the like would still be there…just less automatic. I don’t even main Honda, but when I played locally for awhile with the dipswitch set to no store, I still had no trouble executing the move when necessary. It just didn’t come out “on accident” anymore against walk-ups and such.

Regarding Ryu’s fake fireball…is there anything that could be done to help keep the move in check without removing the fake totally? It really shouldn’t put an opponent into a block state at least (does Dic’s fake slide…?). I suggested a few things earlier that would help the lower tier characters overall that would help them favorably against fireballers, like Blanka’s slide (against Ryu in particular) and several of Cammy’s moves, but any insightful input would be great.

EDIT: And yeah, Dictator’s just fine the way he is. The last thing he needs is a reversal Psycho Crusher that starts up faster. Or a teleport.

720

I lol’d hard at reversal PC. Bison would be unstoppable with that.