Rebalancing ST Remix

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
581

The super freeze is too quick for me, too. Sometimes I get caught by tick into Demon even if I’m standing.

I really don’t think Akuma can be balanced without making him some weird and possibly lame hybrid of the Uppercut Brothers. I’ve already mentioned somewhere about how air fireball bugs me a lot. It still does. SFII characters weren’t made to take diagonal projectiles into account. Gief’s lariat, for example, does absolutely nothing against air fireballs. Nor does Boxer’s Headbutt unless Akuma jumps at you for some stupid reason. But if you take that out, then you’ve taken away a significant portion of Akuma’s uniqueness.

I would balance his ground fireballs differently. Obviously fixing his hit boxes would be good. I would model his fireballs after 3S (because that’s really the only other game I know well). Keep blue fireballs (but they have to be purple now!) but they don’t knock down and have Ryu fireball frame data. Keep red fireballs, but they have more startup and recover than his blue/purple balls and knock down.

I would make his SRKs vulnerable, but like Ken’s jab and fierce SRK’s which are hard to stuff. Give them Ken startup, but Ryu recovery so they’d be easy to punish. And I would reduce their stun.

Hurricane seems fine except maybe a few more frames of recovery? I just hate it when Akuma wiffs a hurricane right in front of me and then throws. This isn’t a problem for me with Ryu or Ken, but I’m not sure if it’s me or Akuma’s hurricane. Again, maybe to model it after 3S (and SFIV! Possibly other games, too!) make it the short hurricane that’s juggleable so that he can’t juggle you if you’re crouching.

That’s about all I can think of for my Please Balance Akuma wish list. Man, now that I think about it, I just kind of want to take 3S akmua and put him in there instead of the current R. Akuma. Man am I original. I guess since I’m in that frame of thought, please give Akuma all five supers from 3S (Pound the Ground Super is definitely the only way to win a match in 3S) as well as Ultra Demon.

I really like the fact that Sirlin tried to make Akuma playable. I’s just a shame that it didn’t work out.

582

Ohhhhh Akuma. I really feel your sentiment on a lot of what you say, but I don’t think some of what you mentioned is so game-breaking that it warrants changing. Some things though? Hell yes.

At the very least, Akuma’s air fireball should come out two or three frames later. This would give opponents a slightly better chance to counter predictable patterns, and still allow his powerful offensive setups. The damn thing seems so instant in the air it’s silly. Some characters have decent answers or better jump arcs, but as you mentioned, Gief just gets checked hard. Standing roundhouse can sometimes catch, green hand at distance…but these options are still rather limited, so having any increased window to catch Akuma would be good. Other than that? Removing it would suck, and it already does so little damage and meter gain. Just make it a little more realistic to counter if you see it coming.

I don’t see any real problems with his ground fireballs overall, honestly. I actually like that the red fireball can bait failed long-range sweeps and jump-ins when timed well due to the slower startup and hitbox properties. I do like the idea of trading the close fierce blue knockdown for knockdown on jab red. (If it was an easy change, it would be awesome if he could have some of his Alpha or VS voice clips and purple fireballs, but I’ll bet the way the game is coded would make this much more difficult that it might seem.) The other properties he has on the fireballs don’t seem abusive, so why tinker with them?

SGS shouldn’t ever be able to catch on blockstun, not 25% of the time on crouch block. Invincible startup is fine, but the ability to hit it at some point would be good. How about a head hitbox similar to Cammy’s during SBF, or Gief’s during lariat, after some frames of invulnerable startup? He could still go through fireballs and over sweeps, plus if you get psyched out and try to reverse too early, he was invincible and you either escape or eat it. It could even get its Dreamcast speed back to compensate. I’d rather have SGS with the old DC speed, HDR improved range, and a small window to counter it than the current version. It just feels so un-Street Fighter-like to have a move you can do absolutely nothing except dodge 100% of the time.

His SRK is so powerful. First-frame capable, great damage and dizzy, and juggles at all strengths. I have no problems with any of this, as Akuma is geared to be a powerhouse at the cost of extra damage. In that spirit, it’s the fact that all of this coupled with total invincibility on the way up that gets me. Put a hitbox on his head like Ken’s jab one, or like Ryu’s at all strengths, on Akuma’s version of the move. If he sets you up properly, he gets his reward, but at least you have a more realistic chance of doing something more about a running defense or zoning Akuma.

His hurricane kicks and great normals don’t bug me as much. They are still situational (though much better than average), and again, he almost always loses the damage trade on hits. We’d have an Akuma that’s still great at both setups and escape tactics, but has a lot of ways to break up his rhythm along the way.

583

I say get rid of his blue hado because his air fireball combined with a good blue fireball is too much for some characters. Make him a rushdown shoto, without ryu’s formidible zoning. He can push you out and zone you like ryu and then use air fireball as a all in one utility pressure tool for rush down and escape?

That’s his problem make him unique by giving him a multihit hado that has bad startup and recovery, but keep its hitboxes the same, and keep his air hado for rushdown, there is no reason that akuma should have multi hit srks, with a tatsu that starts juggle and he has an air fireball, should be able to zone you.

We want to keep his uniqueness? by making him a ryu clone? It’d be cool if he was such a bad shoto that he ended up in low tier, he’d be playable, he’d have his good/bad matchups and he’d finally have a good reputation instead of the “the scrub lost so now he’s gonna pick akuma” reputation.

584

This is true. I think part of why I don’t like R. Akuma is that none of his moves by themselves are super game breaking, it’s just all of his all of his specials are good and it really adds up. It makes me want to nerf EVERYTHING! :lol:

585

Haha yeah, fair enough. I wanna nerf his face! He looks like a damned shark man or something. I’m with you, though; Akuma needs to be backed down from ridiculous to just really good.

Losing his blue ground fireball is a wild idea, but since he’s had both fireballs in so many versions of the game already (are there any he hasn’t had them both in?), it’s far less likely it would get cut. The blue one gives him an ace fireball game, but it’s not as solid as Ryu’s is, don’t you think? Don’t get me wrong, Akuma’s got lots of potentially abusive stuff, but his ability to keep someone at range just…doesn’t bug me or feel out of place for him.

The biggest buff that needs to be made is for the PSN version of the game to be polished like the 360’s. Just sayin’.

586

Ummm, according to t.akiba, akuma’s fireball has 11 startup and the same recovery as ryu’s respective to each strength, that means he technically has a better blue fireball with 1 frame less on startup than ryu.

It may be a wild idea, but seriously why shouldn’t we do something crazy with him? What sirlin did wasn’t enough, he’s got too many things like ryu and ken. His dps are great like kens, and his fireball is great like ryu, and he has an air hado.

Seriously, why not make him unique instead of super shoto clone ryuken combo guy!

587

For something to be removed, there really needs to be something very wrong with it. If there isn’t, people will be justifiably upset. Akuma is a shoto, so not having a blue fireball would limit him in a way that most people who are used to him wouldn’t like. Ryu’s fireball trap is still more solid overall, considering his super (which also meters generally faster than Akuma’s) and his new fake. Akuma’s blue fireballs are a touch faster, and he has the advantage of his great SRK. Shifting the focus more to his aggressive setups involving his air fireball and super, while toning down the effectiveness of his zoning setups, would really help him to feel like his own man, so to speak.

If his SRK had a blue hitbox at his head or body on the way up, like Ken or Ryu, his trap would be more reasonable, along with ability to disrupt some of his other abusiveness as well. Coupled with the fact that he already takes extra damage, removing or changing anything else really seems like overkill at this point. The only way I could see Akuma’s blue fireball changing would be to have it do very slightly less damage, and to remove the knockdown on the fierce one from close (and give that ability to jab red).

Speaking of colors…it would be great if Akuma had a few more color options to select, especially one like his Shin Akuma Alpha 2/3 blue. Give some interns something to do at Capcom, heh.

588

I understand you POV, but keeping him too much like ryu and ken, makes having him in the game nearly pointless, and his air fireball will always make everything else he has great, if you don’t make him a zoner, you should make him a rushdown character. Ryu is better built for zoning and traps, whereas ken has the ticks and better psychic srks pokes.

We already have a zone shoto and a rushdown shoto. Do we really need another shoto who also has a diagonal hado?

589

It’s not a matter of if we need him anymore; we’ve got him, for better or worse. Imagine the scrub uprising if he were to get straight banned in Ranked, or removed completely! So obviously the only practical option would be to adjust him (if that ever even happens at all). Rebalancing is one thing; reinventing is another matter entirely.

It’s not cost effective to gamble with major changes that could potentially really piss people off, or throw off the delicate and refined balance that we’ve enjoyed for so many years in ST (that will continue with HDR). Yes, in later versions he’s got more interesting tools like dive kick and somersault, but if we see any moves being added or changed, they’re going to have to recycle frames to be remotely feasible. The simpler, more realistic thing to do would be to adjust move properties alone. He has an air fireball, teleport, multi-hit ground fireball, different damage properties, more juggles, and a range grab super. I know you want a really unique shoto, but he is a shoto, after all.

This is the first incarnation of a very flavorful character (despite being a shoto variant, granted), so he’s not going to suddenly lose moves in an attempt to make him feel more different, man. I agree with wanting to focus on what makes him unique, though, so finding ways to highlight this part of his game plan (without butchering him completely) should be the goal here.

590

Now say that about T.Hawk from ST to Remix.

591

I never had my dp beat unless it was a cross up with hawk.

592

It actually gets beat by some pretty ridiculous stuff.

593

Have you never played Chun??

594

Haha yeah, but I’m sure they thought those changes weren’t major. Chun Li’s the same way. The core game plan didn’t change for either character, but they definitely don’t feel the same as before. As I’ve said before, I like T.Hawk better overall, but there are still a few glaring things that should be addressed. When I say a major change at this point, I mean pulling or adding entire moves; overhauls as opposed to adjustments. It sucks that his DP priority is so relatively weak, that the reversal bug is still there, and that Sirlin completely removed knockdown dive instead of at least putting it on KKK ala Gief’s lariats, amongst other things. That’s why we need to at least be heard on this. There are a lot of little things they could do to further improve balance, playability, and overall fun that wouldn’t take much effort at all.

595

Meh then we will simply disagree.

If you don’t drasitcally change akuma then you at least have to do something about the fact that his all of dps startup in 1 frame and are invincible, and his blue fireball is the best shoto blue fireball, on top of his juggles, traps, and hitbox issues.

I say throw him in the nerf shredder, but maybe that’s just me.

Sorry, I gave up in that 3rd round, it just didn’t make sense to keep playing in that lag.

596

Not suggesting a real fix, but personally would love to see a version of Akuma where his Raging Demon damage is doubled, and all his other attack damage was halved. Would probably be even more broken than he is now, but at least it creates a distinct type of “trick-shot” shoto where the popular, scrubby tactic of random raging demons is actually a viable strategy.

597

air fb uses an eighth of super meter. he can still air fb without meter, but whenever he has meter, it gets used up.

btw u akuma users seriously hurt a game that’s already struggling.

598

It’s not really the fault of the players to attempt to use a character that’s available in the game they bought. The reality of the situation is that most players online don’t frequent these forums and aren’t tournament players, so they don’t always know that he’s generally frowned upon by many players in ranked matches. The solution is to fix the characters with the problems.

Nerfing Akuma’s ability to use all his options at the same time isn’t the answer; tweaking the broken properties of these moves is. This doesn’t mean gambling with removing entire moves we’ve been used to playing with, nor does it mean that Capcom should resort to some ludicrously drastic measures (like meter consumption on non-super moves).

Many have (correctly) said before that even delicate changes can ripple large waves through tournament balance. The best bases for character changes at this point, accordingly, are older versions of the same characters (since we’ve at least had a taste of power levels of these moves in the same overall game engine, like the differences between O.Hawk and N.Hawk), and very slight tweaks to existing moves. These things are what we should be looking for to compile.

There may never be another version of this game. Let’s at least give all the most hashed out, nonrandom ideas we can so that if that day ever comes (heaven forbid), the most sensible and practical fixes can be implemented.

599

well, I personally believe air fbs are just so overwhelming they may never be considered balance in the sf2 engine

600

I would agree if I fei and hawk weren’t drastically different than their ST counterparts. Most ST videos of these characters don’t even really apply to their HDR forms now.

I don’t endorse using super meter for air hado, but seriously, according the the frame data, he has the best hado, and according to properties, he has the best srks.

I don’t think SFII will ever be able to completely deal with air hado, since it controls space too well.

How was it dealt with in alpha?