Rebalancing ST Remix

Unless your shoto opponent is constantly trying to counter with fierce SRK for some poor reason, canceling a Hawk Dive would really get you nowhere, as it would still be way too slow to land and have enough time to take advantage. A different angle would either be pretty worthless (too steep) or really overpowered (too shallow). And as fun as the idea of a safe knockdown dive is, I trust Sirlin’s experience of it being way overpowered as well. Slightly better priority, or a hitbox that makes it hit as an overhead a bit more often, are about the only ways you could possibly make an alternate dive effective without blowing it wide open.

The most effective changes are almost always slight revisions or combinations of versions of moves we’ve already seen before. Before HDR was released, we could reasonably assume that Cammy’s SBF would be much better off from her ST version if it could go through fireballs at all strengths. How is that? She had the ability to do so as O.Cammy, so unless there were some radical changes made, we knew it wouldn’t be unbalanced.

Sirlin gave Cammy the range from ST, fireball immunity like O.Cammy, a more reliable method of execution, and the upgrade a few characters got that allow them to connect fully with multiple hits (which also gave her the benefit of some added range). People still say the move isn’t that good, but it’s hard to deny that it’s much better than it was before, and quite practical in a few instances. Nothing drastic, no guesswork, just a lot of little things based on prior experience.

There are of course a few exceptions in HDR, like fake moves and Chun Li’s parabolic SBK, but those design elements were very heavily inspired by other similar games like SFA2. Most of what people seem to agree on change-wise are full reversions or combinations of old moves, like T.Hawk having both dives, or Chun Li not being able to accidentally air SBK far too often. The only way anyone will ever really pay attention to a suggestion (if at all, of course) is if it’s sensible for effectiveness, balance, character flavor, and ease of implementation. Factor in the fact that the game’s less than a year old, with nuances still being discovered all the time…no one’s going to pay attention unless something makes total sense. (And even then, there’s no guarantee anything will happen about it, even when it’s something as agreed upon as Honda’s stored Oicho throw and safe recovery on jab headbutt.)

Not exactly.

I would say Honda’s Ochio is just as notable, plus it’s still possible to option select the Ochio.

If I could choose just one change out of an entire list of options for Hawk, it would be slightly more priority on his DP. It gets stuffed by some really stupid things (Hurricane Kick, Guile’s J.MP).

Other than that he’s fine for the most part. I can work around any issues he has easily. And what’s this I keep hearing about his Super bug? I never noticed anything about it.

T-Hawk’s DP is really subpar in terms of priority.

It loses consistently to Claw Walldive tip which is just dumb.

Hawks J.Jab>Wall Dive in most cases. What I don’t like is the Claw Dive, which Hawk cannot DP unless he really anticipates it, and even then, Hawk has no clue if it’ll be a normal Dive and Vega can evade and punish.

You know, I’ll back you up on the super thing; I’ve never really had any problems with it either. The input window is extremely lenient, and I’ve never failed to pull it off when I wanted to any more than a regular 360 throw.

Sirlin said on his T.Hawk rebalancing write-up that he could go on for awhile about his pros and cons of why the whiff was added instead of giving him more knockback after 360. After playing T.Hawk more and more, I think it’s more of a flavor issue than anything. T.Hawk feels very powerful with a repeatable tick setup that is unique at this point in the series; even Zangief has to work a little to get into position after an SPD. Taking that away from T.Hawk would serve to further homogenize the cast much more than adding a whiff animation, so I rescind that part of the argument I made before. (If any active grab frames were to be added, it should be one or two at the most just to help him against shitty internet connections…but I don’t think he “needs” them as some people claim.)

Having his old dive back is really just a matter of “why not?” I think the new one is far and away better, but there have been a few rare times when I wish I could have been able to do the old one instead. It has never been overpowered (in a non-beta version of the game, heh), and would be easy to include back into the game. It could even have a slightly better hitbox to justify using it a bit more often; if it beat or traded favorably with a few slides, pokes, or things like Blanka’s electricity, it would offset the risk of getting blocked and squarely punished much better. The move could have a distinguishing grunt to differentiate it as well, so if someone’s paying attention they should always be able to block unless they really got sloppy. Safe, chip damage/spam Dive, along with risky but better offensively Dive. At the very least, the ability to have options similar to the way Gief does with his lariats would be wonderful. Standing roundhouse extension to N.Hawk range and slightly better priority on his DP though…oh man having more of an ability to poke and counter would be great. I don’t want to count him out; he definitely feels much better to play as in HDR, and that cross-up dizzy combo that can also be a 360 on a blocking opponent is brutal. Anyone that claims he isn’t deadly hasn’t been properly introduced to him. (Doesn’t mean there isn’t a little more room for improvement though, heh.)

Speaking of Zangief and Blanka…was spamming horizontal ball really so much of a problem for Gief that Blanka deserved more damage on a counter hit? Sure, Blanka’s standing strong and slide give him problems, but he has plenty of tools to counter. Crouching jabs, a properly-timed splash or knee backwards, and most importantly kick lariat all give him fits if he spams rolls. Every character in the game has a list of moves that can effectively beat Blanka’s horizontal ball if he gets sloppy. Ken can spam his shit all day with no penalty besides that of getting punished for being too predictable; it should be the same for Blanka. It’s the only change I’d make for the beast-man, really, since I don’t see any realistic way to allow his short roll to remain as fast as it is currently but arc higher to be able to go over fireballs like forward and roundhouse versions of the move.

I agree about the old Dive. There are certain times where I wish I had it (against the Shoto’s), but for the most part the new Dive is better, even if its just slightly.

Btw Jizzon, its a shame you’re on PSN. XBL is so much better for this game. I really enjoy reading your posts. Hopefully I’ll get to play you someday.

Its not even that t.hawk “needs” the grabbing frames. Its the fact that its absolutely retarded that you have to be incredibly precise and not fuck up at all with those 1 acting grabbing frames while gief can be (comparably) a lot more sloppy with his 9 or 10 active grabbing frames. And with all the (gasp here it comes again) nerfing that hawk got, its really just completely unnecessary and sloppy programming.

old dive is still way too fruity :slight_smile:

I think Hawk’s Dive should knock down on hit but have huge bounceback, while being safe on block. This would keep Hawk from setting up option select tick Typhoons on knock down, while keeping the safeness of his new Dive.

And he definitely needs more active grabbing frames on the Typhoon. His DP is fine the way it is, it has more invinicibility than Sagat’s Uppercut, which should tell you how good it really is.

Sagat also has a fireball, and his uppercut can catch crouching attacks pretty easily.

Im only asking for a little more priority. I think brian stuffed me out of my DP with J.Strong twice when we had a set together. If Hawk catches someone in the air (especially Guile) it should be a knock down or a trade. Im totally cool with a trade, as long as I can get my ticks going.

For T.Hawk’s DP, it would be nice to have a few more frames of invincibility, sure, but the bigger deal is the priority on it isn’t good at all. The shotos and Sagat all have huge hitboxes throughout and monster damage on the initial hit (or follow-through hits on Ken’s fierce SRK and Akuma’s). The damage is fine where it is with T.Hawk, but so many other things beat it cleanly (not counting the move’s invincible startup) that just shouldn’t. It has a huge recovery, so allowing it to be better on the offense would be nice. Nothing terribly drastic, just a few more pixels in front and below where they are now to catch closer sweep attempts and slower pokes. EDIT: Yeah, Jiggly hit it on the head for the way I feel about it.

No one ever comments on the suggestion to extend his roundhouse range to that of N.Hawk’s =P SUCH a good tool to punish people who spam moves like midrange fireballs, jab DPs, fierce Psycho Crushers, and so on. Seriously, play Classic in training mode against CPU Ryu or Guile, then go back to Remixed and feel the difference. It also would work out very well with where the new dive falls, oh man.

I can’t argue that it wouldn’t be nice to have a few more active grab frames, but are they really necessary? Are people missing with the move that much? Even one extra grab frame would be doubling his grab window, and the fact that his is a little easier to get in with than Zangief’s seems to justify not making it a lot more lenient. I don’t know; I’m just not feeling the move as being really worse off with the whiff, since I didn’t ever get the 100% combo down before. If he were to get one or two more frames to feel less sloppy, that should be it. He shouldn’t feel too much like Gief, heh.

How would there be any advantage to a safe knockdown dive that put you a mile away from your opponent? (And how would it look graphically to zoom back safely so far?) This isn’t a rhetorical question; I just can’t see how that could benefit T.Hawk over his current dive. Having his unsafe knockdown dive as well with the ability to beat or trade with a few more moves, on the other hand, would be very valuable.

I guess I just don’t see T.Hawk as being anything but better than before, just not quite to the level he should have been. Several characters got arguable nerfs (Fei and Chun), a few oddballs got nothing but buffs (hi there Dic and Guile), but to me, T.Hawk does feel slightly more solid. Maybe it’s all theory from here on out, but if we can all flesh out a few gems of ideas, who knows?

Here’s a question: What characters are just right? I wouldn’t touch Ryu, Ken, Guile, Claw, Sagat, Dictator, Zangief, Dhalsim, or DeeJay. (Boxer’s close too, so long as his slowdown super and TAP bugs could get worked out.) The good thing is that everyone else is really close, and all are competitive now.

T.hawk only feels more solid because you can do his command throw every time now and dont accidentally jump.

I never really had a problem with that before, honestly. It’s more the things like having his strong and fierce DPs knock down if they connect every time, a super that’s practical to pull off on the ground, and the ability to tech throws despite having O.Hawk’s better normals. He also looks considerably less like a mutant now, yay! What can I say, I really enjoy playing as him. The only things I miss from ST for T.Hawk are his old dive, and the range on his st.rh (as N.Hawk).

The old dive in particular would be so easy to include back into the game. If it gets a different sound effect, slightly better priority, great…but at least just put it back along with the new one. No one else has chimed in about him having his old roundhouse range back, so maybe I’m in the minority, but that’s the biggest thing I miss in his transition. I used it on everyone out of sweep range all the time and loved it; it caught fireballers on start-up, and was a great way to punish spammed specials (especially SRKs). If his hitbox were as fat as O.Hawk’s, and went to his heel as N.Hawk’s, it would be wonderful (but not overpowered in the least, as it’s still rather slow).

So are there universal things we can reach a consensus on? Unified voices do a much better job of being listened to than a disagreeing rabble. In T.Hawk’s case, removal of the DP bug and having his old dive back as an option would be a good start. More grab frames and a better DP hitbox seems to come up frequently too, but these don’t already have a precedent set to base off of. Things like Honda’s stored throw and Akuma’s super blockstun bug are similar cases; things that most of the players agree need tweaked. Other things might be nice, but a few changes like these seem more obvious. Since these types are the ones most likely to actually be addressed (if ever), we should compile that list first. For example…

T.Hawk

No reason not to:

-Fix his DP bug
-Include his old dive back as KKK (or st+fw / fr+rh)

Would be a fair improvement overall:

-Add a few more grab frames on command throw
-Make his DP hitbox stick slightly farther out and lower to the ground
-Extend his st.rh hitbox to his heel like N.Hawk while retaining the other properties of O.Hawk’s
-Give slightly better priority to old dive along with alternate sound effect

Akuma

No reason not to:

-Super cannot catch opponent in blockstun

Would be a fair improvement overall:

-(insert well-explained rationale here)

Am I misinterpreting this? Akuma’s super doesn’t catch opponents in blockstun.

I think the poster meant that weird 75% chance of landing an inescapable demon if you block a tick low.

I don’t know if it’s a PS3 code thing or not but here is something that happened to me Offline playing with a friend he did RD on me and I tried to reverse him with a Shoryureppa, the game went nuts depleting my super bar and refilling it again and still no reversal shoryureppa and i ate his Raging Demon.

RD has weird properties for a super, sometime I feel it freezes your state or something !

Yes, thank you for being more specific on this. Sirlin said it’s a straight-up bug, and it was a contributing factor to his banned status for Evo this year. Fixing this definitely belongs in the “no reason not to” category.

Speaking of Akuma…since there really isn’t a thread for him that’s been current, maybe someone could answer something for me. Is there any use for his jab red fireball at all? It has more startup frames than his jab blue one, but doesn’t knock down or do any additional damage in comparison. Strong and fierce chew through moves designed to eat fireball hits, so it would be nice if jab could at least knock a standing opponent down.

Regarding the RD weirdness…the source in HDR is based off of the Dreamcast version of ST. It was the first time in SFII where Akuma had his super, but it was [media=youtube]owzt2v7OJWE"[/media] if he executed it at a moment he gets hit. (Sirlin opted to make the move completely invulnerable in HDR, fyi, so trying to reversal super against Akuma’s with Ken isn’t in your best interest in the first place.) I don’t know how much they tried to fix it in this version of the game compared to what it was before, but it’s happened to me a few times, at least pre-patch.

Maybe some kind of block stun mix up??? I dunno.

I’m not really a Ken expert, but if Shoryureppa is unthrowable, it might have been the best option if he had blocked low by accident. Ken could use SAI’s invincibility to blow through Akuma’s ranging demon without having to worry about the stupid 75% chance of getting hosed.

Edit: Oops, 3S just came out of my mouth. By SAI I meant Shoryu Reppa.

Well, sometimes the only way out of that RD trap is to reverse. What sucks about it is that stupid 75% chance crap. I still think that if you really wanna balance akuma they should remove the RD trap, remove his blue fireball, and give his dps some vulnerablity if they are going to all hit multiple times and have 1 frame startup. Then maybe he wouldn’t be so bad. Fix the hitboxes too, if you take his blue hado out, then you can leave the partial invincibility on his red hado. His normals are retarded though.