Wow. It took me like a hour to sift through that Great Wall o’ Text 
Chun-Li’s just a tragic example of theory sometimes being better than practice. I don’t think Sirlin’s logic was necessarily flawed, but maybe he didn’t see the consequences of some of the things he changed. It happened in small ways to several characters, but Chun-Li is sadly the most noticeable.
Despite her great strengths to play keep-away and rush down, she has two big weaknesses: good fireball traps, and grapplers once they get in. Pretty much every major way she dealt with these issues got nerfed.
Her super used to change the dynamics of games once she metered up. Now it’s partially crippled due to damage reduction coupled with the side-effect of trying to reduce the juggle property into upkicks. Six hits at range became merely four or five hits, depending who’s on the receiving end. (Nevermind that DeeJay, Dictator, and a very properly placed Ken still have their post-Super juggles fully intact.) It can still anti-air, go through fireballs when timed very well, and catch people off-guard in general (thank goodness you can still store it). But it’s just not scary anymore. It should have been changed to roughly the same level of damage as DeeJay’s on all six hits, with the possibility to still upkick as before. You’d still get good (not sick) damage AND the visceral pleasure of connecting those kicks.
Giving Chun-Li’s old “pogo” air SBK back is possibly the best example I can think of to illustrate the point. It’s ironic that her first change was to remove a command normal that came out accidentally and got her in trouble, but then to alter her air SBK so that it has the same damned problem. Not only that, but the way it hangs in the air all but prevents her from being able to meter reliably against the aforementioned fireball trap! Ouch. It does have the advantage of being able to go off the ground at an opponent and connect most of the time for a little damage, and it’s nifty as a slight escape tactic…but no way was that worth the trade. It’s the only change Sirlin made in HD Remix that gets me actively swearing at my screen. Lesson learned: old version > new version.
Her ambiguous knee bash cross-up got nerfed similarly; not only was the intention of removing guessing-game wins met, but since the way it was done was by reducing the forward range of the move, she advances less far with it over fireballs. Not the biggest deal on the planet, but every little bit counts in those kinds of matchups. Plus hey, even as intentioned it’s still a nerf, even if it’s an arguably justifiable one.
Her new ground SBK really feels between modes, so to speak. It’s not fast enough on start-up at any strength to avoid any but the most telegraphed moves, but the slight speed increase it did receive makes using it as a splash escape much less effective. I have to admit, though, I do like using it to play clean-up in a few spots, and the ability to combo it at just the right spot after super feels great. It just needs to have the ability to trade out of corners back. If I could have both ground SBKs or an option select of some kind for the best of both worlds, possibly just more invulnerable frames on start-up, I’d be a much happier Chun player.
Oh, and her lightning legs deal less damage and have lower priority. They’re easier to pull off, so I can understand the changes here. Still…nerfs.
She’s not strictly worse. It feels great to be able to mash and combo her lightning legs better, cool there. Her arcing ground SBK seems better as an offensive tool than her old linear one, though it’s not anything you can really rely on consistently at all; quite often it’s more of a “guess and get lucky” thing. Plus, her core game plan is still what it was, and is just as satisfying to pull off. It’s just a bit harder to do in HD Remix.
Apologies. 
Apologies 1) To everyone who is sitting through the wall of texts that zaspacer and I have been writing. Hope at least our discussion is entertaining.
Apologies 2) To zaspacer, for not giving you a chance to respond to my longer post FIRST before me writing my next post to you. 
I’ll try to keep this one short.
I agree with all of this (thanks to the “…as a general rule” caveat). I, for example, have always thought that Geese’s pretzel code for the Raging Storm was a horrible code. There are definitely limits to how complex you should make a move’s inputs. But trade-offs for simpler motions just happen, and I’d rather have the “harder” motion and the better move. I’d rather keep Fei Long’s harder code if that meant we could keep his old recovery time on the Chicken Wing. And I’d rather keep Dee Jay’s damage on the MGU if it meant leaving it harder to do. Right now, MGU combo is really nice, but… what reason is there, now, to use the easy comboability of it? I played a version of the game where the damage and dizzy WASN’T reduced yet, and it was broken as all hell. So Sirlin had to reduce the damage and dizzy, and now it’s to the point where… what’s the point? We made it easier so it can become more obscure? The only time to use it is the same time you used it in VST, but now it does less damage. So now I feel like the MGU just has no advantage being easier to do than it had before in VST. So, to me, there IS a reason to keep some things more difficult for the trade-off of a good reward.
Can you name some examples? Again, I don’t see it. Maybe my 1337 execution skillz make it so that I just don’t notice these things.
Bison locks down opponents pretty easily without links. Low Forward into Scissor Kick followed up by Low Forward into Scissor Kick, just plain 'ol Scissor Kick, and just plain 'ol EX Scissor Kick works better than anything else, especially because ALL of his Jabs and Shorts have no range. And I never hit confirm with Bison, because there’s almost no reason to never do the something that ends into Short Scissor Kick. If they block, oh well. They can’t really hit me back. I’ve really kept Bison’s game fairly simple, and it seems to work pretty well.
- James
Unintended throws? For me something went wrong if I didn’t get a throw. :wonder:
I was just using their names as an example. I don’t know whether or not they strongly disagreed on anything.
I would say the majority of the discussions were verbal, but there were lengthy e-mail discussions as well. I’m not at liberty to post other people’s e-mails, but we talked about stuff like making Chun’s super a double QCF+kick, giving Hawk whiff animation AND extra far bounce-back on his 360 (I believe this was when the dive was hella quick, safe on block, and knocked down), letting Dic juggle with j.Strongs after Devil’s Reverse, to name a few things.
I think it is important to note that SF4 introduces many design elements in order to reduce the intelligence requirement of the game.
Armor
Provides players a way to force through moves, or to escape situations.
In ST Bison had to rely on building his Super as his 1-time “get out of jail free” card, in SF4 Bison only has to use a tiny part of his Super Meter to turn at least 2 different Specials into escape moves.
Armor allows players to (1) make more mistakes and be able to escape bad situations, and (2) be able to force through moves vs. players that are otherwise keeping a player out/contained.
(the “forced through” attacks are further enhanced with the other elements mentioned below, so that the game allows players of certain characters to then turn their forced hits into much more damage)
Damage Scaling
Players can only take so much damage for their mistakes.
Yes, Damage Scaling directly punishes those with dexterity to perform massive combos, but it also protects players who leave themselves open to get hit by combos more frequently.
MASSIVE Health Bar
Players can commit many mistakes and not worry about losing the match in one opening.
Ultra
Players can sustain a beating and receive a handicap bonus Alpha Strike that can even the match up if it connents.
Furthermore, as is mentioned below, the game allows players of certain characters to hit confirm into this move without the requirement of high intelligence or dexterity.
(low dexterity, low intelligence) Hit confirm into Special/Super/Ultra
Players do not have to figure out how to deliver their Alpha Strike, but can use a simple flowchart to land it.
They can keep fishing with the first step (a move requiring neither extreme intelligence or dexterity to set-up) in the hit confirm until it connects, and then complete the flowchart sequence.
FADC
Players can even turn ordinarily non-comboable hits into hit confirm, into Special/Super/Ultra.
Clearly Overpowered Character
Players can recognize and select over powered characters that they can use to get a handicap vs. players choosing other characters.
Bad Matchups
Players can recognize bad matchups and select counter picks they can use to get a handicap vs. players choosing specific characters.
(Yes, counterpicking and bad matchups were a component of SF2 as well; I am just mentioning it here as an element in SF4 that counteracts intelligence advantage)
Let’s take a look at a match for review.
I’ve selected:
Inoue (Dictator) vs. Daigo Umehara (Ryu)
[media=youtube]oWAPsF738N8&feature=related[/media]
It’s an older vid (2008), but it has some good players and some heated play.
0:28: FA, Dash Toward, 3 Linked attack to Charge, Special
(Here Inoue uses a linked attack to charge a Special, then uses the special to knock down Ryu which resets the opponent for another round of pressure set-up)
0:49: FA, Dash Toward, 2 Linked attack, mix-up game into throw
(Here Inoue is using the Linked attacks and their threat of stringing into a knockdown special [position reset] to mix-up his sequence into a throw. This mix-up is a head game, and puts the opponent into having to guess which mix-up to try to defend against. Because the Bison attack string has many links, Bison can insert his mix-up game at any time during the string)
1:10: Blocked attack, 1 attack, mix-up game into throw (Ryu reverses with uppercut)
1:29: Blocked attack, 2 Linked attack, mix-up game fake throw attempt, baits out reversal uppercut by Ryu
(Here Inoue has trained Daigo to watch for and try to defend against the throw, only to mix-up a fake throw and catch after Daigo whiffs his attack)
2:15: FA, Dash Toward, 3 Linked attack to Charge, Special
(does Bison need all these links to store the charge for Special after the dash toward? Or is Bison giving up Damage (remember, Damage Scaling applies here) from a shorter combo in order to insert full link strings and therefor have the full compliment of mix-up game confusion within those strings?)
2:19: Cross-Up Forward, mix-up game into throw
(Here Inoue uses the threat of the link string into Special to mix-up and get the throw)
3:04: Dash, Blocking opponent, 2 Linked attack, mix-up game fake throw attempt, Ryu reversal not baited
(Here Inoue tries to fake a mix-up into throw to draw out the reversal, but Daigo guess correctly and is not baited)
3:07: FA, oppoent jumps toward, Dash cancel toward to move behind landing opponent, mix-up game into throw
(Here Inoue uses the threat of the link string into Special to mix-up and get the throw)
3:09: Cross-Up Forward, 2 Linked attack, mix-up game fake throw attempt, Ryu reversal not baited, pause into cr.attack cancel into Scissor Special
(Here Inoue tries to fake a mix-up into throw to draw out the reversal, but Daigo guess correctly and is not baited. Then Inoue adds a quick attack this time since (1) it might catch Daigo if he happens to give an opening at that second, (2) if it hits or is blocked it will not leave him open, and (3) he has not used this timing before so Daigo would have to do a psyychic reversal)
3:13: FA, Dash Toward, 3 Linked attack, 4th attack cancel into Scissor Special
(Here Inoue is training Daigo to have to consider more string attack outcomes. This will help in baiting Daigo to try to react to this string later and fall for another mix-up)
3:18: Walk up (no charge), 1 attack, mix-up game into throw attempt, Ryu successfully Throw Cancels.
(Here Inoue uses the threat of the link string into Special to mix-up and try for a throw; it does not work, but it will keep Daigo guessing and allow Inoue to next time complete the string and perhaps catch Daigo if Daigo goes for the throw Escape)
There is lots more footage, but I’m gonna cut it short due to time issues on my side.
Since this is sort of a wish list thread, I have a feature suggestion that I would really like to see in a patch if they do it.
I want a programmable training mode.
Basically there are a lot of things in this game that you can counter if you have the right timing and know the right moves to use. A lot of this game is playing in matches to figure that out. Something that has really helped me and SweetJohnnyV get better is hopping in training mode together. Being able to try things out in certain matches repetitively (performing a reversal in the middle of Honda’s super for example…) without dieing is huge.
If I were to design such a feature, it would probably work like this.
- Enter training mode with the your character and pick the training dummy you want to practice something against.
- Pause the game, select record.
- Perform the move/combo/etc. that you want practice against using the training dummy.
- Pause and stop recording.
- The move set you just recorded could be played back using a button combination (LK+FP, LP+MP, LK+MK, etc…) or mapped to an unused button on your stick (LB or LT on SE & TE Sticks.)
This would allow you to control what and when the training dummy does something. This would be highly useful to help in practicing a reversal on a tick throw setup, Honda’s super, throw loop escape, reversal uppercut timing, anti-air timing, or even just when to stick out a normal to stuff an opponent’s attack.
You could even use it to help you practice tick throw setups. Imagine if you could set the reversal dummy to block+reversal. You could practice negative edging a command throw and punishing the reversal.
This honestly wouldn’t be that difficult to integrate into this game (aside from the last suggested feature.) This could be integrated into the input system and wouldn’t even have to touch any of the existing game code. Because all it is is a way to record and play back button inputs.
Truthfully this is also the #1 thing I wanted, being able to recreate a situation that gives you trouble is a priceless tool to have. For example most people have no sparring partners and only rely on online (like me).
Agreed 100%.
It’s a standard feature in most fighting games.
Emulators actually have a feature similar to that but it must be manually programmed. It’s one of the ways people make combo videos and (tool assisted) speed runs. It allows you to slow down the game (to say one frame per second), and record the inputs at that speed, and then reload the game to its original save state and play out the inputs in normal time.
So you could program a combo in frame by frame or if you are really savvy you could program T.Hawk’s safe jump throw loop sequence in the corner for the 1P controller and have the 2P side mix up reversals at different times.
programmable training mode
I’d pay to have a programmable training mode like you guys described for HDR! So much easier to test things out and practice specific scenarios. (I’m having parry drill flashbacks now, heh.) I’d tip too if they’d allow you to advance frame data one at a time, show fireball hitboxes, or let you pause without completely blocking the screen :bgrin:
An aside…I wonder if Chun-Li’s super hitting fewer times is an unintended bug that resulted from trying to limit the upkick juggle. It does less damage than most of the supers in the game now. DeeJay and Dictator (and a fortunate Ken) still have their full post-super juggles, so Chun-Li having hers back shouldn’t be a big deal, so long as the overall damage is still on more or less on par with the rest of the cast.
Instead of working hard trying to have her super hit properly but not juggle more upkick hits, just reduce the damage on it to compensate for the extra upkick hit. She’d end up with a slight damage buff overall (less damage super, but it hits all six times + extra upkick hit), making her damage be more in line with DeeJay. Of course, if you can position your opponent just right to get that sweet SBK wall juggle, you’ve earned the extra bit of damage and satisfaction, just like Ken. And it wouldn’t feel so bugged out, always a plus.
^^ agreed
Oooh, yummy. I actually was hoping that Dictator would be able to juggle after Devil’s Reverse with j.Strongs or even Super. Would make the DR more practical to use.
I would love to hear more insider info about Remix’s development.
It was pretty broken, to be honest. If he had a Super, he could, at the right distance, get Devil’s Reverse, Jump Strong x 2, Super for 50% damage off of one Devil’s Reverse. It was simply too powerful for one mistake and one super easy-to-do follow up, hit-confirmable Combo.
- James
are you back!!!
one thing i wished they had done is made the various kicks on the head stomps mean something. At the moment most of the time if you dont lk you whiff.
if lk = low and fast, mk = higher and looping, and hk = high, slow but big damage and dizzy, it would be good.
One of the best things Sirlin did with the design space he had available was to utilize more varied and effective movesets for the cast. Guile’s roundhouse flash kick, Fei Long’s short chicken wing kick, Ken’s SRKs, Honda’s jab headbutt…it feels so good now to have more versatility while phasing out near-useless moves. Even more of this style of thinking would be great.
Take Chun Li’s new ground/parabolic SBK, for example. Right now, there’s really no reason to ever use anything but the short version. All versions do around the same amount of damage, and travel nearly the same distance, but short has more startup invincibility frames AND the safest recovery. There’s a lot of room now to give her some leverage that she lost in her HDR transition. Some mix of varying distance traveled, angles of attack (like her old short horizontal ground SBK to escape corner traps a little better), whatever can help fill her usefulness out with more viable yet fair options. This same mode of thought could be used to a lesser extent to possibly help her upkicks out as well, since the short version is also her only real go-to move unless you’re going for extra hits after super.
As far as Dictator goes, it would be interesting to see what could be done with varying speeds and arcs on devil reverse and headstomp. He’s already gained so much, I don’t think more damage and dizzy would really be a good thing…but more clear differentiation between button strength and how he gets to you would be nice in-game. (I’m certainly no Dictator expert though, so if anyone could clarify any specific differences, by all means please do so.)
You don’t know what ‘option select’ means in fighting games as you are completely using the term incorrectly. Sirlin actually took away the most noticeable form of option select in the game…T.Hawk’s command throw.
Ah! I see now; it’s corrected, thanks.
Speaking of T.Hawk, he certainly doesn’t need anything major to make him more competitive, but a few more subtle tweaks would be a plus.
-Fix his reversal bug. It’s silly at the best times, and costly at the worst.
-Give his Rising Hawk/SRK some mix of a few more invincibility frames on startup (at least on jab), and a little better priority (all versions, especially lower). It’s silly that such a large, powerful man can get stuffed by so many attacks, especially with the large recovery on all versions of the move. It doesn’t have to have the hitbox of shoto SRKs, just a bit better than now would be fine.
-Allow him to have his old dive back as KKK (and stong+fwd/fierce+rh) at the very least. If it were to have very slightly better priority or something to offset the risk of the move if blocked, that would be great, but at the very least just having the option to do his old version would be nice against some characters as a mix-up with the new one.
-Extend his st.rh hitbox to go all the way to his heel like N.Hawk. This would be a very reasonable way to give several matchups he’s weak in like Guile a way to punish predictable attacks from a bit farther away. The “big bad boot” would be a boost for T.Hawk, but also slow and vulnerable enough to be sensible.
-Trade his whiff for a bit more knockback after Typhoons. No more grab frames or anything, just give him some of his old option select flavor back while fixing him the same way they did for Gief from WW to CE. If there were some feasible way to give T.Hawk a “counterattack” move (ala Dudley/Yamazaki/Geese/Gouken) that uses the same animation as the whiff that would be AMAZING, heh…but that’s likely way too hard to program for the SF2 platform. No whiff, more knockback please.
He would be a bit more of a threat from anywhere back from point-blank range. He could keep you just past sweep range as a viable tactic with his better roundhouse and Rising Hawk, as long as he himself doesn’t get sloppy or predictable (mind games). There would still be enough recovery to set him up with fireball into sweep, but if timed too late his Rising Hawk would be able to capitalize much better. His old dive coupled with his new one can help him chip more safely or get a valuable knockdown, and if he does earn his up-close threat it would be safer, but not immediately repeatable. Of course, everything would have to be tested and honed to get just right, so this will probably end up as food for thought…but who knows? It’s still fun to think about, and maybe someone paying attention now will do something about it later if the time comes.
still think you should be able to cancel it instead. i would rather watch a dp whiff in front of me and then typhoon… or maybe you can choose the angle like dhalsim’s drills. as fun as that would be, he’d probably become a rushdown monster.