Not to change topic too drastically (assuming we’re still on topic of high level execution barriers) but every top player in Marvel I’ve ever watched has been guilty of dropping a combo/getting wave instead of tri jumping during a clutch moment. Even top Cable players are guilty of dropping a guard break or AHVB link. It’s part of the game. Cause we all know what marvel would be without dexterity:
[media=youtube]9JDGgJKAzKY[/media]
On the topic of dexterity in fighting games, there are certain brands of it that I’m all for, and certain types that don’t sit well with me. Split-second dexterity, as in being able to do X input at the exact moment you need it, I like. That’s the sort of thing that, as a player, I find satisfying. Prolonged dexterity, as in, having the muscle memory to time and execute long juggles or combos featuring single-frame links and such, I don’t like as much. When I’m able to do that correctly, I don’t feel the same sort of satisfaction–instead I feel a kind of relief. A sort of “well, I’m glad that’s over with.”
I think the difference is that, in the former, it’s a single moment of risk-reward, where you commit to the execution, and your momentary failure or success hinges on that single instant, and is immediately visible. Usually, it is itself the turning point or the shift in momentum. By comparison, prolonged dexterity usually factors in when you initially land something rather mundane, and simply have the will and muscle memory to follow it through to its best end.
And just so I’m clear, I don’t want to come across as saying one brand of dexterity in fighting games is inherently “better,” than the other, or a better measure of player ability, or anything like that. All I’m really saying is, from my experience, here’s what is more enjoyable for myself.
So wait, ur honestly trying to conclude that fei vs ryu is not a bad match-up in favor of ryu lol. DGV is good, I don’t have a problem admitting he is a better player then me but that isn’t completly negatge the disadvantages Fei has in the match. Same deal with honda, I don’t have a issue admitting Thelo or EA r better then me but I wouldn’t be stupid enough to pretend honda doesn have disguesting advantages over fei. Why can’t u guys just admit Fei got shafted and move on, I mean according to these so called"top players",fei is a top tier and honda needs some more buffs to compete lol.
That’s easy for u to say since ur character (which just happens to be a favorite of sirlin) was arguablly buffed in comparison to his turbo counterpart. Although if Honda lost his orchio along with his LP headbutt I’d like to see what ur attitude would be like…untill u have stepped into the shoe’s of a fei player fighting agaisnt a bad match-up u really have no right to talk about this.
I felt the same way with Hawk vs Honda. I complained about it endlessely to Sirlin until I did exactly what a number of people here laugh at Sirlin about. I tried harder. Refer to that video I posted earlier.
What, like Honda doesn’t have bad matchups that have stayed pretty bad? I don’t even play Honda, but I can see that.
Wow, I actually feel pretty much that way myself. I also prefer “react really quick”-style dexterity to “do a tough combo”-style dexterity. :tup:
Maybe that’s why I play Honda! 
Fischer is overrated.
Capablanca owns all 4ever.
And no Chess is in no way comparable to fighting games.
aside from predicting your opponents move, id say i agree with this.
back to the controls…only the most awkward moves were changed. pretty much ones that ended in a jump motion. i dont think the dexerity of executing these special moves was removed, it was just altered. i certainly wouldnt like street fighter if every move was a single button press, and i think raakam wouldnt either. he was just making a point that he thinks in TOP level play, the execution isnt as important. i happen to disagree with this as i would think a tournament setting would rattle most peoples nerves, making them fumble, and this is what makes a pro a pro. Consistently landing perfectly timed moves when it matters. plus the amount of time (ie:frames) it takes to do a special move is an important part of the game…
Not really.
A chess game is not decided in the opening it is decided in the later game.
Not knowing openings merely means you will be in a less favourable opening position. It does not end the match.
And no a player will not sit there and try to puzzle out the optimal solution to an opening for an enourmous amount of time unless they are trying to lose.
The reason i namedropped Capablanca is because he famously disregarded practicing openings. And he is still considered the single greatest Chess champion of all time.
And execution is not comparable to memorization the concept are so completely opposite i am unsure how i would be able to explain it.
I guess… Memorization is a mental capacity whereas execution is a motor skill ?
I don’t think that’s what he was getting at. I think what he’s saying is that executing those opening moves or having the memorization to immediately adjust to pattern X upon seeing your opponent’s move Y, and getting that done as quickly as possible gives you an advantage as the game progresses, because you’ve saved time via your memorization, so you have an advantage in that resource as the game goes on.
I strongly doubt anyone ever won a serious Chess tournament by memorizing enough openings.
If you were to make a comparison between openings and 100% combos you would have to have an opening that leads directly into Mate.
I cannot think of one which is why i say Knowing every single opening will not make you win any tournament from just that.
Just as knowing and being able to do a 100% combo does not mean you will win a tournament.
I think you are underestimating the depth of both games. 
hahah everyone whos tired of hearing about fei dont even PLAY fei.
It’s not that I prefer an emphasis on dexterity, I just think that trying to remove it as a factor as much as possible is pointless. In fact, it’s usually a method USED by game designers to help temper things. Supers purposefully are harder to do because of their impact and damage and usefulness. Akira’s knee in VF2 was REALLY hard to do because giving Akira a readily accessible knee move would make him too powerful. SPD codes are hard to do because they need to have a way to prevent them from being too easy to do, otherwise they become too powerful. Once you make them easy to do, their effectiveness is balanced alongside them. Would you rather have a nerfed Chicken Wing with an easier motion? Or the same frame advantage Chicken Wing with the harder motion? If Gief’s SPD was changed to QCB + Punch, you know game designers would make the move do waaaay less damage or give it horrible range. These sorts of balances have existed since the beginning of Fighting Games.
My beef is that people seem to think that Street Fighter shouldn’t be about this, and the Fighting Games should remove that as a factor. To make them more accessible. To me, that’s nonsensical. Accessibility has little to do with high level play. That’s the best part about it. The players who are willing to get good even with simpler controls will be the same players who will get good with even harder controls.
Analogies usually suck, but I have to use one more: Guitar Hero. How accessible is that game? SUPER accessible. How hard is the game at the highest levels? Downright impossible. But that hasn’t stopped GH from becoming the biggest video game in recent memory.
Same with SFIV. Yeah, there are complex things, but because the game is so entry-level friendly, it’s something that anyone can enjoy. And those who would have put in the time to learn FADCs would probably be the same people who would have put in the time to learn them if they were simpler motions.
And the last point I’ll make on this is that dexterity is another door to open up for players. You wanna remove dexterity because it’s “unfair” to those who can’t accomplish the same goals. Well, if you take away dexterity, isn’t that “unfair” to the players who ARE good at them but just aren’t as good at mind games? Why are we making the game less accessible and fun for them? I’ve seen plenty of players who do well in tournaments with NO dexterity at all in the face of people who can do crazy Combos. I’ve seen people who know Crazy Combos win against smarter players because of THEIR skill. Are they less worthy to win just because you think you’re smarter than them? If you think yes, why is that? This IS a video game. Video games have always been about hand-eye coordination. There are definite extremes (Guilty Gear being one of them, where unless you have dexterity, you really can’t win), but SF has been the perfect balance between the two for so long. I just don’t see why some people feel as though “dexterous” players deserve less than “mind game” players.
P.S. I’m not saying this all, just for the record, because I AM a player who has always enjoyed the dexterity aspect of Fighting Games. I’m stating it because, as a player who likes to think heavily about execution and how it affects Fighting Games, I hate seeing its emphasis downplayed and treated like a “negative” thing as opposed to something positive and fun for those who DO enjoy that aspect. Dexterity has never ruled Street Fighter, the classic series in particular. I can do combos into Supers and Chicken Wings and Hooligans and walk-up SPDs until the cows come home, I will still lose to Mike Watson who throws Sonic Booms at me all day and does nothing fancy whatsoever.
But they play characters that have equally bad, if not worse match-ups.
You can play him both ways Thelo! :lol:
If the players that are going to be top are the same players regardless of easier inputs or not, what exactly is the negative side of having easier inputs?
I gave an extreme example of mapping specials to one button to make the crux of my point. Backbone didn’t make the inputs that much easier, but somewhat simpler. It opened up the door to a lot of new players, and renewed a pretty much dying scene. (Tangent: Except for those who still played ST on GGPO, how many new players do you think the scene was gaining pre HDR? How many do you think would’ve left after SF4 never to come back?)
I am obviously not for making dexterity a non-element of the game, but if by making the game somewhat more accessible you are making the game deeper for more people, then why exactly is that a bad thing? You’re not “punishing” those who can do all of it in ST, or “rewarding” anyone. This is not some meritocracy, people don’t deserve to win just because they have faster fingers or are smarter - they deserve to win when they play the game better, and that takes all factors into consideration.
Could it not be argued that quick thinking and fast fingers is part of playing the game well ?
In general, the move gets more nerfed the easier it is to do. As I said, if SPDs were made QCB or DP motions, they would become less damaging or no range. When the Chicken Wing got easier to do, its recovery was weakened.
Heck, one of my suggestions to Sirlin about HD Remix was to weaken the Hooligan Roll, because I thought the new motion would make it too convenient. Due to stupid original ST code, this wasn’t possible without hurting the damage of other moves along with it, so it had to stay the same.
By forcing motions to be slightly longer and less reliable in “pinch” situations, you can afford to make them better moves. So they become better utilities. Again, a Chicken Wing motion that requires :hcf::uf: + :k: is harder to do while walking forward than :qcf: + :k:, so even if you rock at both motions, the longer motion to do is more restrictive in situations, making it more allowable to be really good. You won’t be able to pull off the original motion in a pinch nearly as easily as the new motion.
Or, to use your earlier example, Dee Jay’s MGU. Can you imagine if that was as easy to do as it is in HDR, but still carried the damage and stun of ST MGU?
Honda has worst match-ups then Fei lol, no offense but don’t compare Honda vs Ryu to Fei vs Bison.