Id like to hear results of a DGV vs Evo Ryu mirror match so we can conclude that Ryu vs Ryu is a totally broken matchup in HDRemix.
HAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH
lftrpllr is one of the best Ken/Fei players in the U.S., I hope you don’t feel too much like a moron now
Just out of curiosity, Evo, can you ever just respond with a “Hmm, okay, I’ll look into and see if I can do more with Fei Long.”?
- James
I have to disagree with this. To me, he’s roughly in the same position. His matchups have improved a little bit, but that’s due more to them being slightly nerfed.
Regarding Short Flame Kick, it’s safety is definately not the same as it was before. Characters like Blanka (Slide) and Honda (Headbutt) (A few others) that couldn’t punish it before can now punish it no matter how well you space yourself. It was one of his biggest tools to keep pressure up close. Like I said before, this was the biggest nerf that screwed him.
There’s no doubt in my mind that CW is worse than it’s ST counterpart. The move tends to whiff in between hits and characters with large throw ranges could snatch you up before you fully recover. Due to Cammy, Blanka, and Vega short hitboxes, CW would occasionally whiff them completely and they would get a free grab due to the slow recovery.
I can live with not being able to combo after CW but the 5 frames of recovery was simply too much IMO. It would have been better to add just 1-2 recovery frames since you only had 1-2 frame window to combo from CW. Now characters with Command Grabs can do it for free everytime on hit or block. That doesn’t help the matchup with Honda.
Short CW is worthless against zoning shotos due to the recovery. CW already has a long startup. It’s pretty funny, because it’s useless against what it was intended for, but it’s awesome for when your up close with it. The easier motion is a welcome addition.
I can deal with the changes. All I ask is to remove the recovery frames from Short Flame Kick. That was completely unnecessary.
Just my thoughts on Cammy (she’s usually all I play)…
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Spinning knuckle is still too slow, against good players its not too useful. Characters with really fast FB recoveries (ex. Guile) can block it if there is enough space. Should be faster, I think this alone would move Cammy out of the very bottom.
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Honda match is definitely winnable (I’ve come close to beating Super1NYC, Chagathal, and had a few good matches with EA - and they’re all advanced Honda’s), but its still LARGELY in Honda’s favour. You have to be a really friggin’ good Cammy to win this, and your reaction time with the Front Kick needs to be perfect to counter headbutts. THEN AGAIN, I faced kurropi recently and I’m pretty sure he almost double-perfected me.
I don’t know what other Cammy’s think, and I’m definitely no expert. If I could I’d just make the knuckle faster. I really think that would put her in mid-tier, and she’d have an answer to FB turtles. Players with really good reactions can counter the knuckle last-second, unless you psychic it. But the recovery is so bad that a psychic knuckle that misses means you’re dead against good players. When I faced DGV once I was almost afraid to use it.
You make it sound like the low tier can’t be empty.
To say that a character is low tier means that they have a much harder time winning compared to the rest of the cast. If there are no such characters, there is no low tier.
Guile should be able to block it.
His design has always been having very fast recovery on his fireball.
If i would alter the speed i would so that Guile can block and has to block rather than punish it if you do it on reaction to boom which would also allow it to hit Ken and Ryu due to their slower recovery.
I’d be happy to.
Exactly. Thanks Wes. Basically Evo is pissed because Fei isn’t god. Personally, I don’t know about a lot of you but I’m tired of hearing the same bullshit about Fei over, and over, and over again.
The point i am trying to make is that the lowest tier will always by definition be the low tier.
Not that the characters in the lowest tier have to be necessarily bad.
This argument is not going anywhere and is just confusing all participants so i will suggest just dropping it.
i still dont understand the offense anyone takes to the easier controls… sirlin explained his reasoning rather thoroughly and so far no one has presented a good argument for the more difficult controls other than “scrubs can easily do what took me months or years of practice.” wha wha whaaa
lets say there were only 10 people online that were good with gief or hawk using old commands, and the easier controls brought that # up to 30. thats great for everyone else but the 10 “elite” that thought they were something special cause they could do SPD’s.
Read VFF’s post again:
It wasn’t so much the easier controls as it was the accompanying bugs that came with them.
Also, the easier controls are messing up people who are used to ST’s timings, i.e. walking forward and fireballing which would results in a DP in HDR.
I think I understand Backbone’s philosophy in simplifying the inputs.
If you could map Fireballs to A, Dragon Punch to B and Hurricane Kick to C, you basically boil down the game to its core. Who can outwit whom, outsmart the other player, play better footsies, have better position. You’re taking the dexterity component out of the picture.
I think that basically, at high level play, this is generally true. I would have a hard time picturing Daigo/Wong/Valle/Insert pro player here being unable to do a DP when they want to do it. Which is why at high level play, the game-play tends to change pretty drastically.
Sirlin & co didn’t dumb it down that much, and I might be very well off base, but it seems that they’re trying to make the game more about the game and less about the controls getting in the way. It still takes some dexterity to pull off cr.short st.short cr.short xx super with Ryu, and some measure of reflexes to punish Honda’s torpedo on reaction, but making it less frustrating evolves the game for everyone.
[media=youtube]qfOoUVX4hfk[/media]
Yaya and Daigo have trouble with Dp on one side :lol:
:arazz:
i just reread it. these are the comments im referring to. the point about hawks whiff hurting better players is another story.
Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner!
Seriously.
lolz 
Yes.
(Note: I’m not yelling at you, Raakam, I’m yelling at the idea that people have that making Street Fighter no longer reliant on dexterity is a good thing.)
It’s not true that at high level play dexterity does not come into play. I’ve explained a myraid of times why this is not true and has NEVER been true, so I won’t go into it again unless someone asks. I mean, if that’s the case, WHY NOT make Gief’s Spinning Pile Driver a QCB Code? Honest question. It shouldn’t affect ANYTHING, right? Wrong. Even at the HIGHEST levels, it makes a huge difference what the code is.
No matter how hard you try, you WILL NOT take the dexterity out of Street Fighter. If you do, the game will suck. I mean, let’s go play Chess. That game is balanced and requires no dexterity. Why are you playing Street Fighter, a VIDEO GAME, if you want to take dexterity out of the equation?
SF and Chess are NOT one and the same, no matter what people think. SF is NOT only about outsmarting your opponent. There are tons of games that can facilitate that sort of competition, don’t try to turn SF into one of them. If it’s how SF was meant to be played, let’s all go play CvS2 EO on GameCube. Tapping the yellow stick gets me Uppercuts!
I had trouble doing Fei Long’s Chicken Wing in ST even though I could do Hooligan Roll consistently. But the rewards for the Chicken Wing were huge. Now, in Remix, Chicken Wing is easy but at what price? If the controls didn’t matter, the move should not be toned down at all. Give it the invincibility on the Short one AND the original hit box AND the frame advantage. Do you think it’ll make a difference at high level play if it were a QCF motion or the original motion? You bet it would.
I mean, another change was making the Rapid Tapping moves come out with less button presses. Did that make the game easier to play? No, it made it MORE COMPLEX. Now doing things like Chun Fierce into instant Legs is a strategy. Low Short into Hand Slap with Honda is a strategy. It added dexterity. No matter how hard you try, you can’t get rid of it.
Dee Jay’s Machine Gun Punch used to reward you for landing all hits. Now that it’s easier, the damage had to be reduced. If dexterity didn’t matter, why bother? Leave the damage and dizzy alone. Experts are supposed to land it “all the time.”
I’m veering off into a tangent here. My main point is that Street Fighter will NEVER be only about who’s smarter than who, and if that’s what you want, go play something else. This may not be a popular opinion here, but it’s true. I’d rather play a game where if I see Choi DP a Honda Headbutt, I’m amazed. It takes dexterity to do that. If it were something as simple as hitting the yellow stick up when I saw the headbutt, I wouldn’t be amazed anymore. If you can conquer the pressure in a tournament setting and maintain your finger dexterity in that environment and still pull off things that other people would mess up because of the stress, that’s what makes you special. Without it, you basically take all the excitement and joy out of SF.
- James
Yeah, of course dexterity is important in SF, I don’t think that anyone is disputing that. I think the point is more about “How much importance do we like dexterity to have in a fighting game?” Maybe 50%? 80%? 20%? I’m pulling numbers out of my ass here, but it’s not an on/off switch, you can have a bit more or a bit less emphasis on it, and I guess everyone has a favorite spot for emphasis on dexterity.
Personally, I like the overall balance between dexterity and the other factors that HD Remix has. I guess that VirtuaFighterFour and James Chen prefer having a bit more emphasis on it (maybe at the level that the old ST has). I also guess that yet other people would prefer a game with even less emphasis on dexterity. All three opinions are valid! :wgrin: