Okay now you’re just trolling.
Hey man I thought we were cool?
We are but this is getting ridiculous.
I’d love to see Cammy’s CD be a low hitting move.
I’m tired of seeing it hit the opponent’s ankles and they are still standing up.
Also if Cammy’s Hooligan throw had an overhead option, it would be cool as hell.
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Enough of this Fei and Honda talk… I’m sick of it I tell you! 
I can’t speak for other Blanka players but I do like this version of Blanka better than ST Blanka. After playing Remix Blanka since this game came out I think I know what he needs. He needs to be able to charge exactly like HF Blanka. That way, he can keep a down charge when he does a horizontal ball. He can go right into a vertical ball or a RR if he crosses up. Damn that would be nice. His mixup game would improve.
And Sirlin, Rainbow Roll IS useful! Very much so. I use it like it’s going out of style.
Does he need even more mixup options after empty roll ?
- Block
- Bite
- Electricity
- Slide
- Vertical Ball ?
Absolutely. You can use to bait Honda’s and Chun’s super. You can fake-out a Vega that’s trying to fake wall dive and punish him for it. You can knock Sim out of the air by changing the trajectory. All tough matchups for Blanka.
Hey, at least I didn’t ask for the vertical ball to hit on the way down. That would make Blanka Akuma-ish.
Well i’m personally hoping that since it was patched once…it can easily be patched again.
We’ll prolly have to get a Petition going.
Its inexpensive, and quick.
I’m hoping this time around, they bring in the top ST players for each character, and ask them.
I’d say give Rog back his Neg Edge thing, but honestly Charging with two fingers makes it SO MUCH EASIER TO USE ROG.
Idk how top Roggers deal with charging TAP…this must be why none of them Charge past 2 often.
Right but fei doesnt have any good matchups like honda for example where its 8-2 in his favor
Hey i see your Youtube vids.
I didnt know you guys went up there for testing.
Can you elaborate more on what Jesse and Gram disagreed on?
I do remember Gram saying he was not feeling the way Rog was getting changed in testing.
No you DIDN’T just say that! C’mon now!
You really want Guile to be able to just sit there and do crouching forward XX Fierce Sonic Boom?
Wow. That statement really blows my mind. I’m sorry if it sounds like I’m getting on you, but…I play a Rush-down style Guile and I know good and well that an interruptible crouching forward, with all of its reach, would equal…
…wait for it…wait…
EASY INFINITE SONIC BOOM COMBOS AND/OR LOCKDOWNS IN THE CORNER!!!
Think about that, please. There’s a reason why that move has never been interruptible.
For CapCom/Backbone to invest a large amount of money and the reputation of an AAA license (Street Fighter) and AAA company (CapCom) rep in a product, they are going to require that it appeals to the masses in order to be be well received (continue the strength of the license and rep of the companies) and sell well (profit off the venture).
Rebalancing the gameplay for ST is one (1) feature of HDR.
It largely was done for the hardcore crowd, though it could be pitched as part of the marketing PR to the casual crowd.
Making the moves easier to execute is one (1) feature of HDR.
It was probably sold to management as a feature for the casual crowd, though it also probably reflected Sirlin’s perspective on shifting the game from less of a intricate-muscle-memory (twitch is still there, and piano-recital is less present in ST/HDR than it is in SF4 or Vs.) skill contest and toward more of a strategy game. (a mindset I shared with him even before HDR: I like it both as a designer to open the game up to more people and as a player who benefits from a higher number of competitive opponents)
As Raakam said:
"I think I understand Backbone’s philosophy in simplifying the inputs.
If you could map Fireballs to A, Dragon Punch to B and Hurricane Kick to C, you basically boil down the game to its core. Who can outwit whom, outsmart the other player, play better footsies, have better position. You’re taking the dexterity component out of the picture.
I think that basically, at high level play, this is generally true. I would have a hard time picturing Daigo/Wong/Valle/Insert pro player here being unable to do a DP when they want to do it. Which is why at high level play, the game-play tends to change pretty drastically.
Sirlin & co didn’t dumb it down that much, and I might be very well off base, but it seems that they’re trying to make the game more about the game and less about the controls getting in the way. It still takes some dexterity to pull off cr.short st.short cr.short xx super with Ryu, and some measure of reflexes to punish Honda’s torpedo on reaction, but making it less frustrating evolves the game for everyone."
(though I get the impression that the “simplify control execution” function was a Sirlin pushed for feature, not a Backbone centric one)
Each aspect of this game (beyond the core port) that can be broken down into segments of time/money/staff budget is a feature.
And CapCom/Backbone had to decide which features would make the cut on a small budget, with the intent that the license and game be successful to the masses.
Many of the features being included are to Sirlin’s credit.
And much of the added quality of those features beyond what the budget provided for are also to the credit of Sirlin.
If you don’t like his actual tinkering, you have to understand it was the first step in a new process that was both underfunded and without an accessable model to follow.
And to NOT champion the hardcore-player-community-help-rebalance feature as a positive move, is to contribute toward it being a feature that is left off of the next game.
I agree totally with Shari here.
REMOVE the jargon: letters, key words, etc.
Approach it from the perspective of a tournament.
Regardless of the quality of the teams/players/characters, a group will break down into tiers of quality:
- high, medium, and low
- high, low
- even
- etc.
This doesn’t speak to the size of the gap between each character or power level relative to previous years/versions.
It simply states that in a competition between this group, some are going to be ranked higher than others relative to each other. (IF they are not all even)
YES, you can add in jargon to re-label these tiers into something else.
“High-Medium-Low” can become “Deity-Legend-Hero”, but that does not mean that RELATIVE TO EACH other they still don’t break down into the non-jargon relative rankings of high-medium-low.
Does this help?
http://streetfighterdojo.com/superturbo/ryu/ryumatches.html#FeiLong
Funny man.
And very good point.
To that point, I think Norieaga does a better job than Evo in listing his results vs. a subgroup of top players in a certain character and his performance vs. them.
Rather than just referencing a single player whose win % vs. every character obscures the issue.
I’d love to see Noguchi or Yuubou piloting HDR Fei Long.
Maybe they could set up some exhibition with the top ST players on HDR?
I’d also love to see a listing of the top Fei Long HDR players and how they do against the top players of the other chars.
THEN, I’d love to see another round of balancing with Fei very likely getting some major upping.
A lot of people don’t disagree that Fei seems underpowered, they just don’t want to keep having this thread steered onto that specific topic over and over in little posting snippets.
Most players have much less interest in Feo than you do, and most want to read/discuss more than just Fei in this thread.
In addition, they don’t want flippant remarks if they are gonna hear about it, they want a very well thought out and written statement. (don’t just reference vs. DGV, reference vs. the top 5 Ryu players; don’t just reference yourself, reference the top 5 Fei players; link youtube footage (HDR or ST) of top players; etc.)
This might of been mentioned already, but does anyone else think nerfing chun in hd remix was necessary? Was she really that much of an overly abusive char in st? There are really only a handful of japanese players that actually use her extensively and of ALL the ST matches I’ve seen here in about 15 years I have only seen a handful of chun users. One of her only good points about her with matches with Ryu or any FB/DP based chars she faced has been nerfed namely her super. She now has a MUCH harder time dealing with Ryu now then ever before. Let us add more to that by nerfing her flip kick and nerfing her juggle properties off of a super. In addition hardly anyone uses her new bird kick. The massive arch it does gives players more then enough reaction time to counter hit it with a DP or any attack of there choice. In some ways its just as vulnerable (maybe more vulunerable) then the original bird kick.
IMO the nerfing changes made to chun really was just taken it a little to overboard imo. Anyone else agree? I just feel that she should of been one of the chars to have been left the way they were.
Yeah I don’t play Fei, but I do play against him. In ST, when I played against Fei, even from a good Fei player, it was basically a free win. In HD Remix, it’s not - good players can and do beat me with Fei. That’s where I’m coming from when I’m saying that HD Remix Fei is better than ST Fei, at the very least for the vs Honda matchup.
Possibly Thelo but you have to think in the bigger spectrum. Sure he got longer rekka reach to ** chip ** honda (whats he going to punish that honda does?) and his CW maybe helps in that matchup (i really dont know) but in reality, the rest of his matchups remain worse or the same.
I understand what u r saying and I don’t mean to come off repetitive or nothing. I talk about fei because I main him but most importantly because he was one of the characters to recieve less additives in terms of gameplay compared to the rest of the cast. I just wish people could acknowledge the fact that he has been nerfed and that it was a bad call…honestly that is the only point I’m tyring to make.
This actually makes for BAD game design.
(for games meant to have competitive longevity without defaulting to the best players simply being composed of a subgroup of those having the highest natural aptitude)
The reason being is that “difficulty” for dexterity moves is largely relative to the user.
So if you tie in power in a game to dexterity, then you end up with the best players being those with the best dexterity.
Just like you end up with tall people in basketball and short people in horse racing.
Don’t get me wrong, a crazy high dexterity requirement can make for a great game to WATCH.
But it makes for a lousy game to play over the long haul unless you segregate players by skill level.
In addition, balancing the power of moves in a game off learned dexterity is bad because once players “master” that move their use of it becomes trivial and it will break the game.
Making a move more powerful is generally balanced out by some corresponding cost:
- time/action locked (have to power up a super bar first)
- drawback in speed of execution
- vulnerability properties to move
- etc.
Sometimes, however, a designer will seed powerful moves (at a cheaper cost to perform than is correct) across different characters in order to give those characters a core mechanic to define them and influence their play style.
On the subject of dexterity, there are a few things I’d like to cover.
Types of skill Dexterity
- Twitch (initial reaction speed)
- Piano Recital (rhythm based)
- Muscle Memory (intricate motion ingrained to be performed on reflex)
(if you have more than these, please chime in and we can see if they might be added to the list)
Roles of Dexterity
- a tactile experience that makes the moves/game more fun
- a learning curve as you figure how to use moves for each character
- an added personality to each character, as moves on the screen correspond to motions on the controls. (some which overlap)
- difficulty can be tuned to determine the % of playerbase that can perform moves
Degree of Dexterity Complexity
You can tune the difficulty/reward for dexterity just like you can tune everything else in a game: require more precised input to activate a move, allow fewer frames to perform a move, expand the string of combos to require more rhythm for execution, speed up the game so players need faster twitch to get moves out on reaction.
You can set dexterity so game moves are immediately trivial, or you can set dexterity so that (like tying a shoe) there is a learning curve but then becomes trivial, or you can set moves so that only a certain % of the population can perform them and an even smaller % can perform them consistently.
I think you raise a good point, but I think you are looking at that point in the wrong light.
Do I have a problem with giving players with high dexterity a place in the game? No.
Do I have a problem with setting a single skill (dexterity, hit box knowledge, strategy, etc.) as a universal requirement for playing the game? Yes.
I like ST more than SF4 as a game because in ST each character represents a different bundle of skills, but no single one of those skills at an extreme level are required for all characters.
In fact, different characters in ST rely on different skills to be effective, even at the highest levels.
In contrast, SF4 has a universal requirement of dexterity for all characters. If you don’t have that ability then you essentially have a “hard ceiling” with that game in terms of how far you can progress.
If the designers goal is to make a game around a single specific skill, then fine.
But I feel a bigger and more sophisticated game is one that gives players different characters, each requiring different bundles (and weightings within those bundles) of skills for each character, with overlapping of some skills but no universal requirement of any of them to an extreme level for all characters.
Make a character (or grouping of characters) that requires extreme twitch, make another that requires extreme piano recital, another extreme knowledge of counters, another extreme sense of zoning, another extreme use of mind games, etc.
I know you have good dexterity. (I’ve seen you play)
But speaking for those of us with limited dexterity, SF4 has a massive ceiling (universal dexterity requirement) that we cannot cross.
It’s bad enough watching top SF4 players lose matches because they miss their Ultra. (how buzz kill is that: players losing off bad performance rather than winning off good performance)
But I can’t even deliver proper damage in regular combos or set-up Ultras to begin with, there is really no place for me as a hardcore player in that game.
I think Guitar hero is a game based primarily on piano recital dexterity.
I think the game does well because people enjoy the gameplay and difficulty levels are not forced down peoples throat as players are largely segregated from one another and people of different skill levels are not forced to compete vs. each other. (PvE vs. PvP)
I think Magic Online also does a good job in segregating its players: casual vs. hardcore.
I think SF4 online play with it’s Championship mode also does a good job of segregating casual players. (but a lousy job of segregating hardcore players)
Only if the new execution causes the move to execute faster or some other in game execution advantage it didn’t have before.
If the move still takes the same time to execute, doesn’t allow the player the ability to buffer it differently, etc.; then it shouldn’t be adjusted in terms of its power.
If you add an uppercut motion with Guile that makes his cr.Forward longer you are unbalancing the game.
Uppercut motion or not, difficulty of execution doesn’t justify making Guile’s Forward being more powerful.
Justification for the properties of Guile’s cr.Forward should be based on overall balance.
People aren’t going to acknowledge what they don’t believe. We know fei long recieved boosts and nerfs, some think the boosts outweigh the nerfs some think the opposite.
We got it, you think the opposite, when we need you we’ll ask. You aren’t helping anything by continually bringing it up.
Let’s drop it for awhile ok?
Well which other character got bad treament, from my view everyone else was done pretty good or at least respectably.