100% agreed. Honda’s jab headbutt is bad enough to get in on for a chunk of the cast; he really doesn’t need an auto-throw anytime you get close. There needs to be some risk involved (though removing store AND adding a whiff seems excessive).
Speaking of jab headbutt, since he already has buttslam as a valid escape reversal, why not at least lower the priority a bit to trade instead of beat damn near everything at point-blank clean? It does good damage already, so he could still play turtle well, just not so damned braindead.
As far as Cammy goes…her SBF is used for more than fireball evasion. It’s great to bait reversals from just the right range. Just slightly speeding up all three versions of the move (and not have her get tagged on startup from a few fireballs, wtf) would be nice. Then give her old jumping strong back. Lastly, recycle said jumping strong sprite as a punch move to cancel out of hooligan the same way her kicks have been used to do so in later games. Clean, effective, brutal, and not overpowered. Mmm.
PLEASE don’t touch Ken. Sure, scrubs spam jab SRK all day, but it has enough recovery to counter if you’re paying attention. Adding even a frame of recovery would make matches against Dhalsim and Vega that much worse, which is the last thing he needs.
I’ve always said to improve Cammy’s Spinning Back Fist to make it so that the Jab version doesn’t move forward at all. Make it hop in place, a little faster than it currently does, but not fast enough so that Fierce into jab Hooligan will Combo. Then she has a safe chip move that is uncomboable and a move that she can use to whiff to build meter, since she’s the only character who has NO such move. Then make the Strong one act like Jab does now, and the Fierce one travel a distance sort of in between Fierce and Strong now.
Remove the great invincibility it has now from the chest down. Let her get hit in the legs again like before. Make all three avoid Fireballs, yeah, but let her legs still get hit while she’s hopping.
Lastly, make it so she punches the instant she lands. Right now, it’s too easy to just wait for her to land and hit her before she actually punches. If she lands, she should punch right away, so you are better off trying to punch it in the air and intercepting her move. But if she manages to complete the hop, dammit, she should get the punch off right away, so it at least instills SOME fear of trying to hit it. Right now, you can kinda yawn when you see it, check your watch, and then hit it when it lands with no concern whatsoever that maybe you’ll time it badly and get hit.
(P.S. and the sad thing is this version of the SBF is SOOOOOOOO much faster than the SFIV version! That SFIV version makes this SBF look like the most unfair move ever!)
A lot of people play most of their matches online, so saying it only works online isn’t terribly helpful.
Making Honda’s command grab unstorable and have a whiff would put him more in line with the two characters in the game who are supposed to be grapplers, which is terribly unfair for reasons nobody except Honda players can grasp.
The SBF is a good move if you’re certain there’s gonna be a FB thrown. But if you’re even slightly late against a good Ryu, for example, you’re eating a DP. Its too punishable, and makes it hard against Guiles and Dee-Jays. However, I’ve become pretty good using it so I’m getting used to it (slowly).
I’m fine with removing his storage and adding a whiff. What non-Honda (and probably some Honda) players don’t realize is that while the storage is nice, it’s really overrated. If you play Hawk/Gief, doing reversal oicho is easy.
BTW, I would have loved to see HDR Honda get more of O Honda’s normals, in particular far standing short/forward which are GREAT pokes against Shotos/Guile/DeeJay and increase the distance to activate his far standing fierce or get rid of it altogether and keep the “porkchop” close fierce.
What separates ken is great, not good, great dps when compared to ryu. Just like vice versa between their hados, jab dragon spam works online but its beatable.
Ken does not need tweaking.
Honda, akuma, fei, cammy, hawk, and maybe chun need tweaking.
If i wanted one tweak for ken, it would be hcf+k for crazy kicks just to get rid of NE them for cr.mk/hk xx hados.
It is overrated… unless you are trying to break his defense and you have no Fireballs.
Yeah, stored Oicho does nothing when you are going for ticks (although you can Negative Edge it and be safe), where it really hurts is on the defensive end. I always give the one example I have against Balrog: every time Balrog charges, I tap Jab. If he does a rush I have to Block, I block. If he ever tries Kick Rush into THrow, I grab him for free.
And honestly, if I even had the option of walking up to Throw him with Cammy or Fei, would be nice. Wouldn’t happen often, but would still be nice as an option. But with Stored Oicho, you can’t do it. It’s too easy to react. You don’t even need to move the joystick.
And lastly, I think the one that makes me most angry is when I use Honda, and I Oicho even though I never remember doing the motion nor ever even thinking about the move at all. It’s sad when it happens for free like that. I mean… there really is NO negative repercussion at all for doing it.
While I agree with most of this, you make it sound absolutely fullproof. It’s not. I’ve been thrown many times, while having a stored oicho.
But like I said, he doesn’t need the storage and one day if there ever was another patch, I’d love to see it removed just so it could be proven that it wouldn’t affect his W-L chart.
Fuck a win-loss chart, I’m talking THEORY FIGHTER dawg. Fuck a matchup, don’t care what the numbers say - the concept is just ludicrous. I don’t understand how it was overlooked while trying to balance him when they wanted to essentially give non-fireball characters a chance while making his fireball-character matchups more winnable. But then he doesn’t do anything to ochio? I simply don’t understand. It’s not foolproof but it sure is stupid.
It was a bug in ST, not intentionally put in the game. So while I agree with you that it should have been removed in HDR, my point is that it would not matter. Cammy and Fei Long still would lose to Honda. Stored Oicho is not why they lose to Honda. They lose to Honda as well as most characters in the game because they are underpowered.
So while there are legitimate reasons to complain about stored Oicho. That’s not the solution to balance how the low-tier characters win against him.
Sure, but losing is one thing, what happens in ST and HDR with Fei and Cammy against Honda is not just losing. Have to lose charge or stand up to throw would give more openings in Honda’s defense, and those matchups, while still hard, would be a bit more winnable.
