R.i.p st

[System_1]

And HDR is easy as hell to get into compared to ST 15 years ago. There are so many wikis, forums, and tutorial videos via YouTube about SF2 that a total novice could reach competency with a character within a month by reading and practicing. Just search YouTube for ‘Sirlin tutorial’ and have at it. Or read this forum and the wiki.

You kind of repeated my point. The poster I was originally responding to implied that the game being easier to get into wasn’t worth the cost of it being slightly different than classic ST because that made it a game fit only for 11 year old kids apparently.

The only way to get better is to play better competition. If you are playing truly better opponents you are going to lose and lose often. You are defending the sore losers and scrubs or rage quitters who would quit after taking one loss. If you don’t like winning don’t play fighting games then because fighting games always have a loser every match. Even pro players get crushed at high levels. Double perfects, OVCs, or just complete beatings…this happens at EVO and SBO and not just on online play. If everyone walked away from fighting games after taking a big loss then no one would be left to play.

I don’t disagree that the most important part of getting better at any game is playing against better competition.

You don’t want to newbies to lose at fighting games but you want newbies to be able to get better at the game quickly? How can they get better without losing? Even if you are facing equal competition you should be winning only half of your matches (or 5/10). Taking a loss half of the games you play would make most people give up. And guess what? Good riddance.

And this is where I start disagreeing. I didn’t say I don’t want newbies to lose at all, but it is important, if they are going to give a damn about playing in the future, for them to believe they have a chance against at least some of the competition. HDR was in a somewhat unique situation when it first came out where a lot of players brand new to the game were introduced to an unusually large amount of players that had a literal decade or more of experience over them. I personally think this was a large part of the reason why most of the new players immediately shifted to SF4 when it came out, relegating HDR to the status of barely a niche game when compared to it’s initial release, though I admit I may be wrong about that.

If you lose a match then record and post it and have people offer you advice. Or just ask people about match up tips and tricks or watch more videos. Complaining that your competition is too good is insane.

I think you’re confusing my concern over the dwindling popularity of HDR and by extension ST with frustration concerning my personal performance. I know I have a lot left to learn, but I don’t get upset when I lose. When I see posts saying that the only reason ST is at Evo at all is because of HDR, it’s pretty obvious that ST is losing favor even among the hardcore. It’s not really out of line to think that maybe a little more should be done to grow the population of ST players. I love the game now that I have a way to play it and I would hate to see it “die” so soon after.

And if I kill someone in HDR online I always send the same message saying ‘Go to SRK.com and lurk around the HDR forums and read as much as you can if you want to get a lot better quickly’.

I appreciate that. I try to point people to the site too if they’re not being complete douchebags to me.

Years ago when Alpha 3 was at its peak players like Daigo, Valle, Choi, and then later Justin with MvC2 dominated at the height of those games’ popularity. There was a massive pool of players and those names stood out year after year at the top of the heap.

And now that the majority of people have moved on from the scene back then guess who dominates still? Daigo, Valle, Choi, Justin…It has nothing to do with how many people are playing the game. It has to do with them routinely kicking ass and putting in the hours to get good. When the pool is low they are still top players.

I admit that ‘because’ was a bad choice of words. I’m just (badly, apparently) trying to get across the idea that I personally think a game becoming popular and having real legs to stay popular might be more important than catering to the hardcore almost exclusively, which a lot of fighting games are guilty of and some posters here are calling for even more of. Insisting that your fighting games be incredibly unforgiving might appeal to the hardcore, but casual players hate that. There’s a reason why I can’t get any of my friends to play Virtua Fighter but they like Soul Calibur a lot. You say you don’t care about appealing to them, but I think that’s the big problem here. When developers cater to only the hardcore players of a genre, it’s frequently the first step to that genre dying out completely, and even though genre death won’t always follow, it’s a troubling sign.

[Heavenly_Claw]

No one wants a massively relevant game they simply want a hardcore balanced fighter. If you want a game with mass appeal stick to World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy, or Halo. Fighting games or RTS games or any other small genre are meant for hardcore gamers and enthusiasts who don’t care about learning curves.

HDR was only made because hardcore players kept the ST scene around for 15 years. No new players came into ST over the last five years to magically revive the scene to create a demand for HDR. HDR was an idea by a tournament player (David Sirlin) who pitched the idea to Capcom and they gave him the all clear after his success with CCC (despite the lag) and HD Puzzle Fighter. The only thing that kept SFII relevant was things like EVO, SBO, X-Mania…hardcore scenes.

And HDR is easy as hell to get into compared to ST 15 years ago. There are so many wikis, forums, and tutorial videos via YouTube about SF2 that a total novice could reach competency with a character within a month by reading and practicing. Just search YouTube for ‘Sirlin tutorial’ and have at it. Or read this forum and the wiki.

The only way to get better is to play better competition. If you are playing truly better opponents you are going to lose and lose often. You are defending the sore losers and scrubs or rage quitters who would quit after taking one loss. If you don’t like winning don’t play fighting games then because fighting games always have a loser every match. Even pro players get crushed at high levels. Double perfects, OVCs, or just complete beatings…this happens at EVO and SBO and not just on online play. If everyone walked away from fighting games after taking a big loss then no one would be left to play.

You don’t want to newbies to lose at fighting games but you want newbies to be able to get better at the game quickly? How can they get better without losing? Even if you are facing equal competition you should be winning only half of your matches (or 5/10). Taking a loss half of the games you play would make most people give up. And guess what? Good riddance.

If you lose a match then record and post it and have people offer you advice. Or just ask people about match up tips and tricks or watch more videos. Complaining that your competition is too good is insane.

A T.Hawk player on this forum was wondering why his jumping jab ticks were never working against Dictator in HDR so he asked why in the T.Hawk thread…well someone answered that jumping jab doesn’t connect on a crouching Dictator. Lesson learned. He didn’t move on to another game in a fit of rage he learned and adapted.

Against good competition in ST & VF5 I lose the majority of my matches without question. But, I know I’m at least pushing myself against good competition, and not getting easy wins against total newbies who idea what they are doing against me.

And if I kill someone in HDR online I always send the same message saying ‘Go to SRK.com and lurk around the HDR forums and read as much as you can if you want to get a lot better quickly’.

Years ago when Alpha 3 was at its peak players like Daigo, Valle, Choi, and then later Justin with MvC2 dominated at the height of those games’ popularity. There was a massive pool of players and those names stood out year after year at the top of the heap.

And now that the majority of people have moved on from the scene back then guess who dominates still? Daigo, Valle, Choi, Justin…It has nothing to do with how many people are playing the game. It has to do with them routinely kicking ass and putting in the hours to get good. When the pool is low they are still top players.

And now that so many new players are coming in for SFIV…guess who we see destroying everyone else? Oh yeah Daigo, Valle, Choi, Justin…as usual.

No matter how popular or not SF was the same people are almost always the best at it because they play enough to be. Saying that they became the best at a game that ‘no one cared about’ is wrong because these guys dominated everyone at the height of many different games and now they are showing dominance once against with SFIV.

Actually, a game with mass appeal is exactly what players want and the best fighters in the world would agree with this. If more players are drawn into HDR this means more competition, which means that masters like Choi, etc… would get to fight new blood and prove their mastery, not just playing against the small pool of dedicated players.

HDR was made for the purpose of reintroducing ST at a better time. With XBL and PSN providing online access around the world, it would have been plainly stupid to not share this with the new generation of players and providing pleasure for all. By not limiting ST to the arcade scene, Sirlin helped breathe new life into a very memorable game.

I don’t see the problem with making a game easier to get into. It just brings more players into the fold. They may reach competency faster, but not mastery.

Making the game a little easier gives noobs a better chance at improving. Remember, many of the noobs entering are fighting opponents with 15+ years of experience, or more if you count older editions. By making inputs easier, they can tolerate a loss better. Besides, I believed a true old school fighter would want tougher opponents, so why not accept the handicap of easier inputs to get more interesting opponents??

Gotta agree with you though, a player shouldn’t be playing “Street Fighter” if they don’t have a “fighting spirit” to preservere after a loss.

I’m pretty sure that Promoted Pawn was saying is that Vanilla ST was becoming less relevant, not that people didn’t care for it. At 15 years, its not surprising it has some rust on it. HD Remix at least adds some more flavor to the Vanilla. Whether it is better or not depends on the individual taste buds.

[xcfrisco]

Fighting games or RTS games or any other small genre are meant for hardcore gamers and enthusiasts who don’t care about learning curves.

I don’t think this is the case at all. I think steep learning curves is one of the reasons Guilty Gear never got uber popular despite it being a solid, if not THE most solid, fighting game to come out after 2000 (whenever cvs2 came out). Furthermore, of all the names you mentioned, (Valle Choi Wong Daigo) the only person that I ever saw do some damage in that scene was the japanese guy. Why aren’t those other 3 people the best at this game? Or every other fighting game that’s ever come out? It couldn’t possibly be that high level Guilty Gear, Tekken, VirtuaFighter, Smash, any game with a scene, have high learning curves. Wong, Choi, and Valle must really not like winning tourneys or making money to not bother trying to be the best at these games.

Those games are hard, even for these “grandmaster” OG’s.

And why do people even bothering playing SF4 even though everyone complains about how scrubtacular it is. You guys must REALLY REALLY HATE SF4’s lenient inputs if you guys are complaining how things like chicken wings and spd’s are easier to do now in HDR and reward pick up and play scrubs.

I mean, its not like this scrubtacular game is the first and only game @ evo to probably have close to 1000 entries and require a whole day’s worth of pools.

The ST community is so picky its and :lame: at the same time. I really hope all the people compaining about HDR and sticking to dinosaur old ST isn’t the reason that there’s no SFII as a featured game @ evo next year. And don’t give me some bullshit about “well if you have numbers with the new school HDR players” or “if you let a couple people alter the course of your game then that game must have been really weak to begin” etc. The OG’s who have been playing SFII for 20 years have a lot more influence over what happens @ srk than me or however many new school HDR players could ever have. None of the Cannon’s know me personally, but I bet they know and are good friends with a lot of the old school “OG” players that keep complaining “this game sucks” and “this shit is week, gimme back ST!”

/rant

[Iapetus]

I just wanna say one thing.

When this project was introduced, we ST folks thought we were getting a straight port of our favorite game with redrawn art. I was on the bandwagon at the time because that one frame of ryu’s walking stance was sexy. I thought “If every piece of art in the game looks that good, we are gonna have a gorgeous game that will attract so many new players it will be great.” I already loved ST, so this was just icing on the cake. Then a rebalanced mode was introduced - I was very very hesitant toward this, but it seemed to be well thought out. This was gonna be the definitive ST. I was pretty excited. When we got the final product, either through expectations or something else unnameable, I was disappointed. The artwork didn’t look nearly as good as the concept art (Yes, I know the transfer from 8 to 4 shades changed the look), the music was kinda meh and the tweaks didn’t scream balance to me. A lot of changes felt like they were just there to make the game feel fresh. Don’t get me wrong - this is all fine and good and HDR is great game - but the expectations I had didn’t translate well to the final product.

Call it whatever you like, that is why I don’t like HDR as much as ST. I feel like I didn’t get what was promised. Was it my own doom? Was it the shortchanging of the development team? No one will ever know.

HDR can be the new standard for EVO. Cool, we need the new crew of players and the availability of consoles warrants it. Just don’t tell me ST is dead; with as dedicated a fanbase that we have, I don’t think that will ever happen.

[Professor_Jones]

Since the first announcements they made about it, I was against the idea. Simply because ST is an excellent classic and it must not be changed. Imagine if someone came and said “I’m gonna make a remake of The Godfather”, with new actors and shit. I would tell him to fuck off and leave that masterpiece as it is. This is exactly how I feel about ST and HDR.

I became even more skeptic when I read about the changes that were made. And when I tried the game, well that was it for me : I found it ugly, it didn’t have the charm ST has and the musics were shit.

But the thing I hate the most about HDR is that it divided the already weak ST communities outside japan. Now the only way to get competition at this game is to live in japan. The few ST players that are left outside japan are too far apart and too few to maintain an interesting community. ST was already agonizing with few players keeping it alive, but now HDR killed it for good. Fuck that ugly piece of shit.

[System_1]

most people that likes HDR didn’t were into ST, i hate HDR because i put a lot of effort in to execution, training, time, all went to the trash can, now anyone can come and do everything with little/no effort :nono:

So true, I dont find remix to be a bad game but ST is and will always be THE Street Fighter game. It took alot of skills to become good at the game and remix turned that technical beauty into a simpletons dream game.

ST forever!

[x64]

It took alot of skills to become good at the game and remix turned that technical beauty into a simpletons dream game.

What the fuck? WHAT THE FUCK!? Really? You think bigger windows to do SRKs and simplified 360 command throws make this a simpletons dream game? By far and large you don’t get any freebies AT ALL. If you sucked ass at ST you are still gonna do the same amount of sucking in HDR. JESUS CHRIST IT IS THE SAME GAME. You people are bitching for the sake of bitching god damn.

:looney:

:sad:

[BoggleMinds]

Since the first announcements they made about it, I was against the idea. Simply because ST is an excellent classic and it must not be changed. Imagine if someone came and said “I’m gonna make a remake of The Godfather”, with new actors and shit. I would tell him to fuck off and leave that masterpiece as it is. This is exactly how I feel about ST and HDR.

I became even more skeptic when I read about the changes that were made. And when I tried the game, well that was it for me : I found it ugly, it didn’t have the charm ST has and the musics were shit.

But the thing I hate the most about HDR is that it divided the already weak ST communities outside japan. Now the only way to get competition at this game is to live in japan. The few ST players that are left outside japan are too far apart and too few to maintain an interesting community. ST was already agonizing with few players keeping it alive, but now HDR killed it for good. Fuck that ugly piece of shit.

Hey, I remember your Japan trip log from a while back. Props for that

Sadly GGPO is the last remaining place where ST is still alive and active. I think I’ve seen you on occasionally in the past, but it seems unfortunate you live in Europe which doesn’t mesh well with when the most Japanese players are on… not to mention your pings to them wouldn’t be he best either.

[TNB]

Whatever- "Lackey, present the universal truths about Street Fighter 2!"
A. It is not dead. It’s traits have carried over into every sf game since.
B. It is VERY hard for newbies to get into because the specials are very hard to understand, combos take loads of practice, it has it’s own terminology and subculture, and it is unpopular compared to tekken etc. so that help for it cannot be easily derived. I was there once.
C. that posts like this ar4e made in hopes of provoking debate and thus giving rep meter.
D. too many people are frustrated with it because of all of this, and therefore think it is dead.

[jsw1188]

its amazing how long this game has lasted. kudos to the original designers

[_MJ_R]

st neva dead!

[Percy]

holy shit, talk about a successful troll thread.

[skongi]

sadly i find less and less european players on ggpo st

[_MJ_R]

djfreejoles

st gets old sometimes, 4 is fun. PLAY IT

[djfrijoles]

djfreejoles

st gets old sometimes, 4 is fun. PLAY IT

…no

[_MJ_R]

…no

dont be afraid of change…

[djfrijoles]

dont be afraid of change…

I hardly change my underwear and you want me to change my gaaaaame ???..no

[kevgeez]

djfreejoles

st gets old sometimes, 4 is fun. PLAY IT

4 is Shit

I hardly change my underwear and you want me to change my gaaaaame ???..no

Now see, idt anyone needed to know that little tidbit about your life.
:wasted:

[Grog]

Oh he’s shared way worse

[Tetsuo_Yagami]

I don’t have any of the current-generation systems, so I haven’t gotten the chance to play HDR.

However, I play Super Turbo on 2DF all the time! That game is FAR from dead, bro. As long as GGPO and 2DF are carrying it, ST shall still draw breath. The day it dies will be the day the world ends.

I’ll definitely be helping the game’s survival. I’m the resident Cammy of 2DF. Just hit me up.