its not the same game get your facts right? if there is a game with easier moves and exectution and one which actually took time to do it. your saying its the same?!?! GFTO:arazz:
most of your post don’t make sense. You say hdr is whats keeping SF2 alive, which is bullshit cause even if hdr wasn’t even made ST will still be played across the world. HDR is the reason people are doubting sf2 these days. It has divided and killed the hype of the game.
One of the bigger problems with ST outside of Japan is that there hasn’t been a single company capable of porting the game in arcade perfect capacity. CCC was a total bust because of the excessive input lag, AE is not the same as ST, and while the DC port is the closest perfect port to consoles (and was used for HDR), the DC is a console that isn’t really durable enough to be tournament viable.
A PS2 arcade perfect port, or a PS3/360 port that was a port of ST (no HDR anything) using the arcade sprites, music, engine, code, etc. and output in 480i would have been the best thing for the ST community. I still don’t understand why classic mode contains the classic sprites, classic music, 4:3 mode, but not classic backgrounds. 
I still can’t believe that ST doesn’t have an arcade perfect port.
Imagine if The Godfather was never given a perfect port to VHS or DVD or BD. Imagine if, in order to appeal to casual crowds (like HDR did) that the violence and plot were toned down made easier to follow and handle, and that the visuals were changed for no apparent reason. At least The Godfather was given a perfect transfer from cinema to home format unlike ST.
But the worst thing about HDR is that the game noticeably drops inputs offline. That’s right, offline, not online, but offline. Sirlin even documented this on his site. Backbone is easily one of the worst companies at porting arcade games. Just look at the HDR and MvC2 bug and glitch threads. :wasted:
I also love how Sirlin emphatically touts the superiority and stability of the 360 version compared to the PS3 version. Obviously he and Backbone didn’t test either of them very thoroughly because it is apparent that there are input problems offline with both platforms. Dropping inputs offline is a major issue but I guess Backbone won’t ever be addressing them especially now that Sirlin has left the company which is a major blow to HDR’s longevity in my opinion. And the PS3 version and 360 are both known to reset button configurations though the PS3 does it at a dramatically higher frequency (like almost every time).
Also the PS3 and 360 run at different speeds? None of this was play tested and remedied before launch? And HDR is the new SFII tournament standard? :wasted:
So larger input windows for every special and SUPER in the game, easier mash commands, safer moves with lower reward, and some new ‘get out of jail free’ moves, make this game the same?
Some people lacked the execution to get T.Hawk’s command throws off at any time, or to get Honda’s fierce hands out consistently, or to perform consistent reversals, or to get Tiger Knees off without jumping…
People aren’t saying that this is a simpleton’s dream game and that scrubs can walk up to HDR and own everyone. But they certainly don’t have work as hard as ST because input windows have changed unnecessarily to cater to casual and scrub players. The people who see HDR see easier commands and think “oh wow a game I don’t have to practice as much”. And these are the kind of people we want playing fighting games? People who would rather have the game change for them (simpler commands) rather than practice to be able to consistently perform (difficult commands)? Think about it…ST was the golden standard for 2D fighting games for 15 years (and still is). No one ever complained about hard inputs who truly wanted to win. But Sirlin, because of his garbage mistaken philosophy, and admitted poor inputs, changed tons of inputs for the sake of casual players.
What’s funny is that Sirlin even cherry picked the inputs he changed. He made windows for specials gigantic and static, he made Tiger Knee motions easier, made commands throws stupidly easy, and made mash moves require less inputs. But things like the reversal input window? Still one frame. Safe jumps? Same strict requirements. Reversal throws? Still one frame without negative edge to help. Links and combos? Nothing changed there. HDR’s inputs are just so inconsistent and almost silly it’s really odd.
I think Valle even pointed out early in HDR that larger dragon punch windows would make walking forward into fireball much harder which is now a well known side effect. Sirlin complained about SFIV having ‘shortcuts’ that made performing some moves very difficult because they overlapped with shortcuts, but he has done the same with some special moves in HDR. Zangief’s Green Glover overlaps his SPD command now which makes no sense.
Lastly, input motions are part of balance, without question. Both Capcom’s and Sega’s developers of fighting games like ST and VF have stated that inputs are heavily factored into balance. Things like how lenient link combos are, how small or large input windows are, and how many windows the reversal frames are are all taken into account. When later versions of SFII were made, Capcom tested out charge times versus jump windows (and wake up animations and other situations) to establish what charge moves could be done in certain situations.
In VF there is an elbow class move where the command is F,F,F+Punch…it’s three forwards in a row and punch on the third forward motion. The move is a slower class attack, meaning you must perform it when you have an advantage, because if you are neutral with your opponent their faster attacks will beat your attack when performed at the same time.
Now a move that requires three forwards in a row cannot be performed at any time. You must plan one step ahead, establish an advantage in frames, and then buffer the forwards into the frames where you are ahead of your opponent. So let’s say that you throw out a low punch in VF, no matter what happens next you already have to start inputting forward three times in a row in order to finish the move before your punch connects. Now, if your low punch connects, then you hit the last forward and punch and you get your elbow out immediately. However if your low punch is blocked then you simply don’t hit the last forward and punch. Hit confirming.
If your opponent throws out something slow at you and you block and gain frame advantage…then in order to buffer in those three forwards in a row (for the elbow) and then punch, you have to react significantly faster (unless you read that your opponent was going to throw out a slow attack: yomi). So if you established advantage offensively in VF, the elbow could be done immediately. When you establish advantage defensively, the elbow must be done on reaction, which is prohibitively difficult execution wise and is a MAJOR factor in balance. Sega AM2 intended it that way so only the very best players could do it.
Sirlin said that ST, VF, and Starcraft have inputs that are too hard and that those games need easier inputs. I know that the Starcraft community really reacted negatively (some harsh stuff was said) to that and the VF community distances itself from Sirlin whenever he talks about anything VF related (like yomi). The philosophy of Blizzard is only to cater to the most rabid hardcore competitive fans when it comes to balance and mechanics and inputs. HDR meanwhile was a game for the masses that came across as an insult to the most hardcore in my opinion.
I find it confusing that Sirlin wrote ‘Play To Win’ espousing the virtues of intense practice and training to win but then designed a game where he tried to remove as many execution barriers and practice requirements as possible.
HDR has some nice stuff…no more O.Sagat and N.Claw’s wall dive insanity. But the input windows feel awful.
Epic post is epic. Its like a wiki article.
Great post and good read VFF.
First… A+ post. I treid to rep you… “but I need to spread some more around.” Anyway, excellent post.
Agreed, I don’t think that is what poeple are saying. It is the high level game play where critcal action matter where the games falls apart. Sirlin own examples are prefect. His Rekka’s din’t come out, Chio’s uppercut, and etc.
However, it is what is beeing played and you can’t fight a current. Ahhh… such as life.
-fatboy :china:
CCC2 was a great tournament, and was recieved just as well as any console port of ST. A year after that tournament, there was another tournament on DC ST that was a lot closer to a bust.
Two important things happened, one was that NKI released his input lag video (a year after the actual tournament), and two was Choi’s performance in the finals of the DC tournament. This caused a rewrite of history that made the CCC2 tournament bad and the DC ST tournament good, but that was not how it went down in reality, nor how a responsible poster should describe it.
CCC2 was close to an arcade perfect port in it’s time, the imperfections were not big issues until the game was already out of use. Also keep in mind that GGPO and 2DF ST run on PC which most gamers can run.
It’s also a weird statement for you to make considering your later rant on casual play, a large fanbase is created by branching out beyond the hardcore players and attracting a wide range of followers, yet later you dismiss the very same concept and go out of your way to exclude them.
If you find hardcore movie people, i’m sure they will have something to say about the so called perfect transfers of godfather too, like so:
the weird part is that he didn’t talk about how those inconviences are an insult to the hardcore fans and how it’s such a shame that the godfather doesn’t have a true port to dvd… he must not be a real fan!
Most of the fans of Street Fighter are not necessarily fans of ST, remember ST was not even Capcom’s choice to make a remix at first. The fanbase of SF2 is mostly familiar with WW -> HF and sometimes alpha series, most of them probably don’t know or care much about ST itself.
There are also different ST fans: Hardcore people that played in ST tournaments in US arcades, and the players who played in an americanized version of the japanese ST.
To the former group, things such as hardware are as much as a concern as the gameplay, some would rather play ps1 st in an arcade cab than supergun st on hori sticks on the floor.
To the latter group, an arcade port would not satisfy their need to have a scene like Japans, even if there was a perfect port they would still look at Japan’s 1000 single elim tournaments and arcade scenes and remain unsatisfied.
Most of the rest of your post is the same rant I see every few months from you, although I have tried to help in the past you just keep ignoring the truth and posting the same baseless arguments about casual players and input windows.
I could try to reason with you again but you really seem content with your confusing and inconsistent viewpoint so it’s probably not worth it anymore.
I’m not sure why you would drop down to that level or what you attempt to gain, but maybe one day you will realize that these random game executives and internet trolls are not actually interested in raising the level of compeitition and would not lose a minute of sleep if every tournament disappeared from the scene.
Most people in the US consider WoW to be blizzards “tournament game” and Sega invested a lot of money in having commercials touting the “new look of real fighting” but failed to support the game competitively despite an extremely loyal and hardcore fanbase. But since a developer says they want to be like a sport and someone gives a backwards justification of FFFP they are now actually leaders in competitive gaming?
The Godfather movies did actually end up getting re-releases in much better quality 
I think this so self call hardcore players are just scared. They feel they have invest alot of time perfecting there execution to have it as an advantage. They scared that a new player play this game with a bigger window and they can start beating them. They feel insecured when they feel they don’t have that execution advantage.
But things don’t work this way, if your looking only at that part of the game your missing alot.
Again look at the results of the evo hdr tournament. The same great players were on the finals. Oh but T.hawk have a so simple throw input why we did not see alot of him on the tournament?
Correct me if I’m wrong but I heard that players like Gian and Ohnuki complained about CCC having lag before any of the non-Japanese players realized that CCC had input issues. I’m not saying that the tournament was bad, it could have been run amazingly, and I didn’t even bring it up, but I merely stated that CCC was a port with lag disqualifying it from being considered arcade perfect or tournament viable. If CCC was so great then why did EVO dump it?
I didn’t say anything in my post about how EVO was run regarding ST tournaments, but it still stands, that CCC just cannot be the tournament standard for console ST. If it was then EVO would still run it. EVO has used the PS1, DC, PS2 CCC and AE and has never agreed upon a long term tournament standard. I’m not trying to rewrite EVO history I’m merely pointing out that ST has no console perfect port that is tournament viable.
Close? Ok good because that’s what I said. We’ve had close ports but not perfect ports. ST has no perfect port on consoles.
And so what if arcade emulation is perfect? There’s no way in hell that offline FBA/Emulation would become the tournament standard format for EVO which is why I didn’t bring it up in the first place.
What are you talking about? I’m not a fan at all of games branching out to casuals by making game play easier for no reason. 15 years of ST with Tiger Knee motions, random inputs windows, five button mashing commands, and 360 (well 270) motion throws…and no one complained about them. But they were unnecessarily changed in HDR to appeal primarily to casual fans which I disagree with.
I don’t want games appealing to casual fans by dumbing down inputs or game play. This happened between VF4 and VF5 and it angered a lot of the hardcore fans both in and out of Japan. I want things just like the Blizzard employee said in my above quote. I want ST or VF or whatever to be as close to having hardcore execution skills that sports like baseball or tennis or an actual sport require. Sirlin said he thinks that fighting games should all be about decision making with as little emphasis on execution as possible which is why HDR went a direction that is opposite of what ST is.
Meanwhile Sirlin doesn’t understand that inputs are part of decision making, and the more inputs, and the more difficult the inputs are, that you have to make, the harder the decision is. Meaning the harder execution is the more mental capacity is required to complete that move. Meaning the less mental attention you can pay to things like spacing, health bars, and the like. If you have to make a safe-jump that’s also a cross-up, and then hit-confirm after the cross-up, and make a decision between block-string or tick-throw, then you have to process every single input in that string mentally, then execute them properly. Sirlin said that “execution should not be a barrier” meaning that as long as you merely WANTED to do a safe-jump to cross-up sequence the game shouldn’t hold you back REGARDLESS of your execution. This to me is a dumb way to look at fighting games.
Difficult inputs are part of the balance of ST and part of the flavor. And HDR removes a lot of that for the only reason being that Sirlin’s new philosophy in fighting games is to remove as many execution barriers as is possible. The reason why ST is such a hardcore game is that nearly every technique requires precision execution. Safe-jumps, reversals, reversal throws, special moves, link combos, and almost everything else have such strict timing. With HDR the history of ST being such an input heavy game has been eliminated. It’s just my opinion but I see nearly every input change in HDR as not being necessary.
Is this like an 09 thing? Because I’ve seen James Chen make the exact same argument that I made about input windows and balance. Also why not make a competent argument, offer some insightful analysis, and then go after my post. Calling me ‘lame’ gets the discussion nowhere. Also despite my join date here, my VFDC account is over six years old, and I’ve been to EVO events in the past when VF games were there. So I’m not just some asshole who picked up ST when HDR came out and came to this board to rant and rave. I’ve been playing ST for the last six years with members of VFDC and SRK/#capcom.
And lastly how am I “ignoring the truth”? These are just my opinions and your opinions. I said that the new input windows are lame and appeal to casuals. Sirlin even wrote that he wanted HDR to have casual appeal on his site. The next two posts after my long post above basically said that it was a good post. You must have it out for me dude or something.
Just link your old posts and I’ll gladly dissect them and discuss them.
Really? Did you purposely ignore the quote from the Blizzard employee about how he wanted Starcraft to be as competitive and hardcore as possible? Companies like Blizzard and AM2 live to please the hardcore fanbase…AM2 just included a [media=youtube]3SpZlE65ZIc&#t=1m09s"[/media] in their Virtua Fighter 5R arcade cabinets. Just because Capcom/Backbone loves to appeal as much as possible to casual fans doesn’t mean that every company does as well. (Cue how VF5R isn’t on consoles).
What? No. I’d say that most people recognize WoW as an MMORPG and not a tournament game as opposed to Blizzard’s actual tournament games like Starcraft: Brood War and Warcraft III: Frozen Throne.
And again. Who cares what casual fans (or most) fans think when it comes to competitive gaming? Blizzard doesn’t listen to anyone but the best players for their RTS games when it comes to balance and gameplay. When it comes to things like story-mode, graphics, audio, then Blizzard loves listening to the casual players but even then they prefer the most hardcore players to offer inputs on every level. When Diablo III screeen-shots first came out the hardcore community complained very openly that the game was too colorful and didn’t look aesthetically like a Diablo game. An employee for Blizzard stated in an interview (with MTV.com I think) that the hardcore fans were whining. Well? He was fired by Blizzard because they worship the hardcore fans but I guess you consider that a bad thing?
HDR is a good game. It is a solid fighter and I’d rate it better than most of the top fighters out there. But it’s not a great game like ST. It’s not a true all time classic. And the only reason that HDR is even a good game in the first place is because it borrowed enough good things from ST to make it that way. HDR is not good on it’s own it’s good because it takes its best stuff from ST. Lastly just look at NKI’s amazing opening post to the Arcade vs HDR thread.
I like HDR, but I largely prefer ST.
The hardcore people and the casual people are largely the same group of people. Our scene is not driven like a sport where the best talent goes to the pros and we all watch and wish we could someday be like them, our scene is driven by open tournaments where anyone can come and see how good they are. The more casual players that have access to the game, the more hardcore players will develop.
I’m not sure where this comes from. Most of the good players do not practice hardcore and do not practice execution heavy characters or tactics, they just choose not to use them. That action speaks louder than anything they could put in words.
Players from this scene and other scenes comment on how SF and specifically SF2 does not rely on younger, faster players that can afford to play 10 hours a day, and does a good job of attracting more experienced players that use their strategic knowledge. If ST was like a sport, the current ST scene would be disqualified from competition. The advantage of games is that they are not sports, and the more we recognize that, the more successful the game will be.
It’s just as dumb as wanting them to be like sports, but consider that one of the key essays from one of the co-founders of Evo starts with this passage:
[quoteI?m watching Monday Night Football right now. So are a 10 million other suckers. Why are we suckers? Because I could give a damn about football, at bottom. It?s no part of me. I never really played, and neither have the vast majority of the sports? fans. Any connection I feel with the guys on the field is just the combination of good advertising by the NFL and my own stupidity.[/quote]
And this is your model for what ST should be?
My view is that both games should exist, there should be a fighting game with 90% strategy and 10% execution, there should also be a fighting game with 90% execution and 10% strategy (called Sucker Fighter Turbo). My point is that SF is more of the strategy based game, and the concept of not being a sport is actually a cornerstone of the scene.
There really wasn’t anything noteworthy in the blizzard quote, he makes some bad arguments, and continues the ridiculous “we want to be like sports” claim. A ton of people care about sports, none of those people care about blizzard games other than WoW. Why would you then want to be like a sport then? It makes no sense. Maybe they have some new direction on this for starcraft 2, I hope so.
As for AM2, I would normally associate things like commercials during WWE Events with the ‘casual market’, and things like tournaments and events and console releases with the ‘hardcore market’. Now all i saw from AM2 was the WWE commercials for VF5’s initial release… hardcore fanbase?
I could be wrong, but I read that it was the art director who said that, and then left to start an IT company with millions of dollars in invested startup capital (that has nothing to do with games, good for him) who still converses with the lead designer, and where blizzard seemed to support his direction even after his departure.
Some changes may or may not have happened, but the overall point seems to be, that hardcore players can be whiners as much as they can be helpful.
The best thing you can do is have someone that has the patience and energy to wade through everyone’s whining and find some truth deep down inside it. Then that person will probably get tired of it and move on, which I think will have an impact on the quality of future games.
I could also say that ST isn’t good on it’s own, it borrowed the best from SSF2 and HF and added dumb casual mechanics like supers, but unlike SFHD, if ST was released today it would be considered terrible and discarded.
As for NKI, he is a great asset to the scene and source of ST information, but that post is a little disappointing. His opening post was nothing for months, he posted his individual arguments elsewhere, they were answered/countered/destroyed/whatever, and his response was to consolidate them into a big mess of a post and insert it back at the beginning of the thread. The best thing about that post is that it killed the thread and it’s not on the first page anymore, so i guess it’s amazing in that respect…
Hmmm i don’t think so, i only have a few days in GGPO i love it!, i think that Super Turbo is way better than HD Remix, strong netcode, tough competition, and what you do is what you get.
Don’t get me wrong i love HD Remix, but Super Turbo is the shit!
Wow. A lot of you are completely missing the point of the “easier” motions. It’s to make it so people who casually pick HDR up won’t drop it immediately due to the high initial learning curve. Yes, some of you elitists don’t give a shit, but it really was a good idea to help infuse new blood into legacy street fighter. Regardless, what I said earlier remains true. Even with the simplified motions/inputs people still learning the game won’t become masters. Sure it might change some characters, but that was kinda the whole point of rebalancing the game.
The SRK 15 frame window thing is an issue that Sirlin obviously didn’t forsee and should be fixed somehow.
Game for the masses? No one even gave a shit but the hardest of hardcore throughout the ridiculous development process. HDR was made by a hardcore player for fucking hardcore players. The fact that he tried to lower the execution barrier for new players has ZERO baring for the old school players.
Most of this thread is much ado about nothing…
noooo someone fed the trolls again =(.
I like Super Turbo better then HDR. It’s not that I hate that simpler inputs made moves easier for casual players it’s that simpler inputs made everything else harder. How many times have I tried to piano a reversal with Claw and ended up doing a fucking backflip? How many times have I mashed to try to throw and ended up doing electricity? How many times have I been dancing outside of sweep range then reacted to my opponent whiffing and had a shoryuken come out?
Seriously, it takes very little time to learn to do a fucking tiger knee, but it takes a real long hard time to be able to reversal, which is still one fucking frame. So if you couldn’t escape tick throws in ST you won’t be able to escape in HDR. Basically you get to save the initial 2 months of learning how to use a joystick but then you still have to devote the insane amount of practice to reversals (Once again 1/60th of a second timing, no fucking leeway there), the combo timing is still really tight and unforgiving, then hey fucking learn to renda/kara cancel because that’s not a rediculous execution barrier or anything.
So yeah, noone is fucking scared of new players or easier execution, because really the fucking easiest part of Super Turbo got even easier (to the point where it actually makes some of the more complicated shit harder) and the hard shit is still just as fucking hard as it was 10 years ago. No one is going to top 8 EVO because now, “OMG I don’t even have to press all 3 punches to lariat or Tiger Knee the Chicken Wing!!!” That is basically the fucking most retarded shit I’ve ever heard, HDR is fun but it’s no ST, and HDR is still really fucking hard to do that next level shit in.
I think I prefer ST mainly because the community involved is more mature and hardcore(GGPO,2dplay). While the HDR community has a 60% ratio of smartass players that call you “cheap” because you zone the crap out of them or tick throw them a few times 
Both games offer advantages and disadvantages, but ST would certainly be my pick if I had to choose between the two.
I see the same smart ass comments on GGPO. its the same shit everywhere.
You cant compare those communities. GGPO has a group of people that are hardcore and newcomers are usually familiar with the game and have some skills. Of course GGPO also has its share of idiots, but its WAY smaller than HDR.
Xbox live and PSN are filled with stupid kids that pick up HDR and think they will kick ass like they do in COD4. Then they get their asses handed to them over and over and pollute the ranks with rage quiting and disconnecting BS.
i will be playing this game everyday even if hell freezes over
Best post in the topic by far!
I miss ST…
HDR can keep it’s shiny graphics and changes that didn’t need to be made, I’ll take my grainy sprites and classic game play thanks. I sold my XBOX about 6 months ago, and I haven’t missed HDR at all. Thank you ink and ponder for GGPO!