how do you do the OS throw against Abel and Viper? jump in fierce ~ lp+lk?
That’s not what I meant, when you test an OS in practice mode you select the defending character as player (Chun, Sim, Sagat in my vid) and the char who does the OS (Bison in the vid) as dummy. You then set the dummy to record, perform the OS (i.e. throw, walk forward, j.HP~HK, c.LP, s.LP) and set it to playback afterwards. Then you try what happens when you use block/backdash/reversal against the recorded OS. So when I use the input data function of the game I don’t get the see the input of the OS (because the dummy does it and his inputs are not shown), I just get to see how the other char inputs his block/backdash/reversal.
Regarding the throw OS: yes, the input is j.HP~LP+LK, but the whole thing is kinda complex against Abel since he has so many reversal options, it also depends on how late I time my jump-in against him (i don’t do real safejumps on him when he has meter because of EX Tornado Throw). Against Viper I usually rather do the s.HK OS because it beats the EX Flame Kick too, unfortunately her reversal Thunder Knuckle will beat both HK and throw eliminating your safejump (due to its slow startup, like Chuns EX SBK in the vid).
thanks man, this is all news to me. didn’t know bison had so many OS…so late to the party. i thank you good sir.
i personally don’t have too many issues with abel on wakeup, but my main strategies against reversals are:
-EX throw: I can throw him out of that so if I expect that, I just go for a throw
-Reg. comm. throw: I can’t throw him out of that, so I usually try and gauge if the player knows this or not, so I jump in fierce and then neutral jump and continue pressure.
-EX COD: If I smell it or feel like I can successfully bait it, I throw
-EX Roll: same as for EX COD
so can you tell me if I’m thinking properly here? I feel like I’m missing something or might not be approaching it properly? Personally this all works for me most of the time but I’d appreciate your input.
lastly, what safejump options do I have against Viper’s reversals?? Also what is the timing for safe jumping EXSBK? For DP’s, I always do front throw…walk one step…immediately jump in fierce meaty as possible but early and not deep. It seems like against DP’s there are two ways to do it, deep or early as long as its as meaty as possible, the early version causes the DP to whiff completely and you end up on the other side, the deep version allowing you to block right in front of them. This is what I’ve ascertained from training room, but for EXSBK it seemed very deep.
thanks ahead of time.
Hey guys sorry to interrupt these very interesting post on options selects but just a quick question and I’ll let you get back to discussing options selects, does anyone here know what the best possible frame advantage Bison can get from all 4 versions of his Psycho Crusher assuming it hit on the last possible active frame. I’m looking at the frame data on the wiki page but not sure how to read the active frames on Bisons Psycho Crusher.
Also not strictly a Bison question but does anyone know how many frames you have to tech Gouken’s back throw?
Against Viper und Chun you can use the “real” safejump timing, neutral throw, walk forward just a little bit, then j.HP (you can see the correct timing in my vid against Chun). This works on all chars except Shotos with their 3 frame DPs and Gief/Abel with their EX Command Grabs I think. Also the supers of some chars are fast enough to hit the j.HP (Sagat and Chun come to my mind, there are probably others too). If you time this safejump properly you should be able to block invinicible reversals which come out in 4 frames or slower. But keep in mind that some chars get up slower than the others (Cammy, Gen, Sagat, Blanka - Blanka gets up the slowest I think), so you have to adjust your timing against them to make the j.HP connect.Vipers HP Thunder Knuckle (7 frames) and Chuns EX SBK (6 frames) are not that fast, so they are not very hard to do safejumps against. Against Guile’s Flashkick (4 frames) the timing is really strict, so I don’t try a real safejump against him, instead i walk forward a little bit more then usual and then do a j.HP which makes his reversal Flashkick whiff. I do these kind of jump-ins against lots of chars like Sagat, Shotos or Boxer, the exact timing depends on the opponent and sometimes (like against boxer) you also have to watch out wether he has meter or not.
But you always have to keep in mind that by using an OS with the safejump against slower reversals (from 6 frames startup on I think) those safejumps can become unsafe again because the move you buffered into the jump in will start to animate and often get hit by the reversal (as seen against Chun in the vid). If you delay the safe jump to the latest possible moment you can somewhat bypass this, but I think that’s not practical because it’s so hard to do. This is one of the big reasons why Bison’s option selects are not as strong as Ryu’s (SRK invincible, Tatsu too has some invincibility/evasive properties), risk/reward is often still not really in your favour.
As for Viper I guess it’s best just to do a regular Safejump without OS after a Throw, if you buffer an OS throw you will beat reversal EX seismo but lose to reversal EX Flame Kick, Backdash and HP Thunder Knuckle, if you buffer a HK you will beat Backdash but lose to HP Thunder Knuckle and both EX Seismo and EX Flamekick (probably unless your jump-in is pretty high, but that should be easy to spot for Viper). The meaty c.LP, s.LP+HK OS is probably still useful though since it beats both EX Seismo and EX Flamekick.
Against Abel you shouldn’t do a deep, “real” safejump when he has meter because he can EX TT that for free. Instead time your jump in to be a bit higher. If you do it really high/late you will hit a Backdash, EX TT and go under an EX COD, if you do it earlier you will make an EX TT whiff and block the EX COD. From there on you can use OS to counter his other options, but it always depends on the position where you hit your jump-in at.
It’s probably best to just mess around with stuff like that in practice mode yourself against various chars, I’m a pretty mediocre player myself and the information I can provide is definately not always 100% accurate.
^^^ i wish that info was available… that would be sweet but I’m pretty sure its not. I think you just have to learn from trial and error and training mode on that one. probable better to record a dumby doing the PC then trying to punish from different ranges, then noting if any of the ranges are safe. I’m sure that lk and mk SK are safe on block if you space them perfect.
also Gouken’s throw has a 5 frame startup as opposed to 3 which is why its easier to tech but i think that the tech window is the same as normal throws which is 10 frames I believe.
Yea, my safejump vs Chun is forward throw -> immediately walk forward like, for a SPLIT second -> jump w/ late-as-possible fierce.
i’ve been seeing some weird things with SD depending on when I hit the HS, how I hit the HS, or whether it gets blocked.
Been experimenting with hitting punch immediately after the HS lands, and I managed to have no ‘HS bounce’ after the hit (ie- I would hit, start the SD animation, then my legs would curl over my opponent, and I would be on the ground behind him in no time), can’t get it to always work that way in practice mode though 
I posted a long time ago how I think I may have actually combo’d the stomp with the SD on Elf (I think) but I’m not sure. I wasn’t totally focused at the the time so I might’ve pressed something else without noticing it or whatever. I just remember being really stunned when it happened and posting here. I was never able to do it again.
lynch, thats EXACTLY why I did it to, only i managed to combo a cLK after I landed and they were still stunned from the HS
i was too shocked to even attempt more of a combo.
it also doesn’t help i’m half drunk and stoned o.0
I’ve noticed that when u do SD, you immediately start dropping, so it has to have something to do with the angle you bounce of your opponents head. Seemed to work more in the corner, but NOT QUITE in the corner…
yeah I just looked up my post here : http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=165392&p=6673153&highlight=#post6673153
and autoblock was on, and I’m pretty sure when its on after the headstomp lands the Sd always gets autoblocked along with anything following…I must’ve really combod it.
Only thing that sucks is there doesn’t seem to be a way to force the headstomp to hit lower- it depends on what the other character does AFAIK. Though again i don’t think the stomp even hit elf low since I just had him stand there.
EDIT: just read more of my old post- maybe I stomped him as he stood up so the SD was able to hit and then I pressed another button. IDK way to long ago.
Fantastic stuff from Vega_Red. Just tried this stuff out in training mode and man Bison is FULL of OS…none too punishing but still, a boot to the face to viper trying to EX seismo reversal is punish enough.
Now here’s some interesting stuff I think I may have ‘discovered’ in training mode. maybe this is old news to y’all but it’s news to me…
anyways there are two type of safe jumps I use, one is where you take only one tiny step after a forward throw and jump and land your fierce as deep and late as possible but still meaty. I personally have difficulty using this against shotos but is necessary for EXSBK, but the other one I use is when you take two steps off of a forward throw and do your fierce as EARLY as possible, basically so just the tip of your fist hits their head. you activate fierce just as bison is descending from his jump, no sooner or you’ll whiff and no later. I have an easier time doing this version. I’ve been using this version very successfully for quite some time but since I was practicing safe jumps and OS in training mode with Vega_Red’s method (I always just had Ryu as the dummy spamming Dp’s, I’d throw him and practice my jump but now I know I can just record bison as the dummy and practice my jumps this way and more accurately) anyways the results for this against Ryu’s DP are
HP and MP dragon punch: if they do a reversal DP against this early safe jump, they whiff completely, if they block you land it. This is how it’s always worked for me.
LP dragon punch: I tried over and over and over again both precisely doing a reversal and mashing the hell out of DP shortcut, but for some reason Bison’s fierce STUFFED the reversal clean. I checked the inputs over and over again and yes it was a DP, I tried both shortcut and oldschool forward down, downforward, but everytime I tried I always got beat…but if I delayed my DP ever so slightly, I traded with Bison, all DPs.
so I’d really like it if someone went and double checked for me. I really don’t think its my execution because my MP and HP dragon punches all reversal fine and whiff completely. It’s the LP Dragon punch that gets stuffed completely on reversal. I don’t know squat about DP properties so maybe that has something to do with it.
Against Sagat, Cammy, Fei Long (Shienkyaku), this method makes ALL DPs whiff completely but they will block if they do nothing.
Against Rufus’ EX Messiah Kick, this method just allows you to land and block to either punish/FA/Ultra whatever your options are at the moment.
Against Balrog, all versions of his headbutt whiff completely on reversal.
If we Bison players get this timing down solid then THROWS instead of just regular knockdowns will become the biggest focus of our game.
PS maybe the true safejump is better, but I could never get the hang of it, I have a way easier time with my version, but if the ‘true’ safejump, the late version, protects against non reversal DPs, i.e. slightly delayed, then I should probably get the hang of it.
Thoughts? (esp like to hear from Vega_red on this one)
The “real” safejump doesn’t work against shoto SRKs because they are too fast (active in the 3rd frames, some of Ken’s are the exception), works on Sagat’s TU though since it’s slower. I use the other safejump setup you wrote about too, it’s the same thing I described when talking about jumping in on Abel I think. At first I thought it was great against shotos, but I found some flaws to it (at least with the method I use). Unfortunately I think they can just dash out of it (forward, no backdash, the j.HP will hit this one) and OS s.HK is too slow to catch the dash. edit: just found out that there really is a positioning where Ryu can’t dash forward and reversal SRK will still whiff. When you do the j.HP as early as you described it I think they can probably just duck under it too. Also Ryu/Sagat can do non reversal LP SRK in the other direction and hit/trade with my j.HP (really sucks when they have ultra), this happened to me a lot against strong players. I think it’s still pretty useful, I think I saw japanese players do this a lot against Sagat, it’s not easy for them to do the delayed TU in the other direction.
If you time the jump-in bad they can sometimes just walk out of it too. When testing these kind of setups it’s useful to do more than just the obvious reversal moves, try backdashing, dash forward, crouching and walking or jumping away too. Also try some other reversals too, i.e. I think Rufus can hit the delayed jump-in with EX Snake Strike, so I always use the regular safejump on him (easy since his reversals are so slow). I’m pretty interested to hear about your results with this, maybe there is a timing which deals with the problems I wrote about.
Ryu’s LP SRK does only have upper body invincibility during its startup, when it hits it’s not invincible any more, that’s the reason why it often trades (still has lower-body and throw-invincibility I think).
cool man this is fun.
in higher level play im sure safe jumping like this will be expected, so we’d have to get more creative and think ahead of our opponent on that one, but luckily you’ve brought so much to the table i feel kind of overwhelmed. i certainly didnt realize how many OS bison had, as minimal of punishes as they are, but it’s sad that we’re all trying to work this into our game so late. hopefully a lot of this stuff will carry over into SSF4.
before i felt limited to options on an opponents wakeup, now there are so many different permutations of what can be done its kinda crazy how many options for different situations we have. I didn’t extensively test safe jump before but its really fun to know that basically anything and everything can be safe jumped with Bison’s j.fierce.
I’ll try all this stuff out in training mode, have yet to try out some of the different options against Abel. If someone doesn’t beat me to the punch, when I get back to the states next month I’m going to probably record an extensive safe jump guide against the cast and different reversals. all of this stuff is extremely useful.
Just saw that you already read my previous post and answered, so I’m just gonna edit that back again.
Directly after i wrote that post I tried around a bit more and there actually really is a timing where a reversal SRK won’t hit you and you can’t dash forward out of it (backdash works though). A non reversal LP srk will trade though, just like you wrote before. Definately useful stuff, but probably too risky when they have meter.
And yes, I agree that it’s really fun to work with Bison’s j.HP, lots of different situations just with slight position changes.
can anybody else explain the slide OS? I am getting annoying at the number of people who can backdash out of whatever I throw at em.
Er… pretty much every character in the game prefers untechable knockdowns to regular knockdowns. In my opinion though, no character in SF4 can make throws the biggest focus of their game. Crouch-tech is tooooo strong. The reason a character like Akuma can build a game around untechable knockdowns is because he has so many useful ways to earn them: DF palm, DF throw, sweep, throw. All Bison really has is throw… sweep and EX headstomp will do the job (I think?), but they’re risky as fuck. It’s great to get the untechable with Bison, but I don’t know if it’s a realistic goal within the context of his attributes.
Basically you use OS slide in meaty situations. Say a dude is on the ground and you want to pressure him with a c.short string, but also guard against a possible backdash. You meaty c.short, and then you hit c.rh ~ c.short. If the initial c.short was blocked (and if your timing was on point), another c.short will come out and you can finish your string or whatever. But if the initial c.short was backdashed, then c.rh will come out instead of another c.short (magic!) and sweep your opponent.
Personally, I prefer to use the s.rh OS in meaty situations, and use the c.rh OS on safejumps. If you safejump, say, Sagat, his best option is to backdash it. If your buffer the sweep into your jump in, then he has NO safe options. He can block and deal with a string, but his TU will lose to your block, and his backdash will lose to your sweep.
so for the sagat example, it would be jumpin with FP, but delay the FP until close to the ground, hiting FP, then Down Back + cLK or cMK + cHK?
It would be like, jump in with down-back charge, hit late fierce and then immediately c.rh ~ c.short (or replace c.short with whatever you want to start a string with)… If he uppercuts, nothing comes out and you block. If he blocks, fierce will hit and c.short will come out. If he backdashes, fierce will whiff and you’ll sweep him
yeah i know ndrwpndy, solid points, but basically my point was that getting a knockdown with scissors doesn’t really mean squat. if I magically had the choice of getting scissors or getting a throw, I pick throw. This is kind of beyond obvious, but i’m just saying whats on my mind considering some of this OS stuff is totally new to me. If we had the option of punishing with guaranteed damage with techable knockdown or getting a throw, depnding on the situation sometimes the throw will be a much better punish considering these option selects and safe jumps. Depending on how the opponent reacts, you either get a free punish or you get to continue pressure. So based on that outcome you can think more about how you want to approach your okizeme game on UT knockdowns which will most likely always be in your favor after taking the most advantage of your first one. You know this, I know this, everyone here knows this, I’m just stating the obvious to sort of recap why throws are so good in light of the current discussion.
i gotta say though the bison forums are bumpin with psycho science lately and it makes me happy. bisonboon, BON APPETITE.