ok sorry if I’m just a bit behind on the safe jumping against shotos. and I watched that totuial that Alex Valle made… but what I think you guys are saying is that after a throw there is timing to jump straight in(not crossup) and totally stuff DPs or it will make them whiff the DP and you will get a block, but if they do anything but a DP you will land a CH for big damage? sorry if thats a long question just seems like some really usefull info
fought Vega just now and found out his ex leap to the wall goes THROUGH our ultra, and even better, the ultra still connects once. Looked really weird, gonna try it out in training now
edit: also what is a good way to practice safejumps in training?
I hear you. Also – to tie in another big topic being discussed in this subforum right now – throws are dope because they make your c.short strings infinitely more effective. If you show that you’re interested in tickthrowing off c.short, most opponents are gonna at least think about pressing buttons between your c.shorts, and that shit plays right into Bison’s hands because ‘c.short, c.short …’ is a frametrap. I’m not sure if I’m down with sacrificing guaranteed damage for a throw, UNLESS I’m throwing my opponent into a corner. But yea, going for the throw really does make Bison’s whole game better! (note: not that my Bison game, throws and all, is any good. ha!)
On a slightly unrelated note, goddamn I wish Bison had a normal sweep! I know short scissors is kind of his makeshift sweep, but it needs charge and allows the opponent can quickstand. Imagine the potential (in terms of footsies and setting up untechable wakeups) if slide was made a command normal and Bison was given a regular trip. Shit, leave the fucked up DR/HS/PC and gimme dat sweep!
Again, using the Sagat example…
Pick Sagat as the guy you’re going to control, and set Bison as the dummy. Record Bison doing a throw, and then have him attempt a safejump in on Gat. Go to playback, let Bison throw you and safejump, and test all of Sagat’s wakeup options. Basicallly, he should only be able to backdash.
so safe jumps only work with j.hp?
lol this is new to everyone isnt it?(safe jumping)…Also I have notice this piece of the learning curve were you go from usually only having one bar of meter that you use constantly to get in and once your in you may manage to get another bar but usually they get away and you pretty much spend the entire match with around 1 maybe 2 bars of EX. of which most of the time you waste.
That was my previous level, I could combo well and get in pretty good but always over pressured and got reversaled pretty quick, then had to fight to get back in again.
The next level that I’m at now I almost forget that I have meter at all. I keep finishing matches and looking down and saying to myself, Wow I had full meter I could of hurt them so much more. I feel that counter poking,baitingand spacing have become a bigger part of my game than using meter.Not saying I dont use meter at all, just that I have a whole lot more of it and finish with super available 90% of the time. It feels like I can read my opponent so well(6th sense).
I can’t wait to see the next level… anyone know what I’m talking about or am I all alone in my learning curve?..lol
nah safe jumping is old news for most people but i think the OS are what is the big news round these parts, at least for me. Never knew dictator had so many. They’re no FADC ultra shit, but they’re there and should be worked into the game…maybe.
and Ryboy, good shit, i think that’s how it kinda goes and I’m really glad to hear that or hear about any bison players improving their game and I had a similar experience, mine was after coming back from Japan with just a new level of confidence. Confidence helps so much, you can get into that bison flow and get that sixth sense going and instead of hesitating, you let the psycho drive do the work for you!
Im not sure about the experience you had with the shotos dps but i did find the probably the same jump in your talking about but it kept snuffing out jab dp clean, and i tried it with a training partner? any corrections i could be wrong. OOO yeah crouching fierce trades with vipes uppercut on wake up and snuffs seismo clean ! so enjoy! and fuck viper. by the way although very hard bison does have a way to press his cr short or cr fwd under tiger knee it just has to be real precise.
In my experience the safejump HP on Ryu/Sagat after the neutral throw always beats reversal SRKs (all strengths) but loses to slightly delayed non-reversal SRKs (don’t know if there is a way to make it safe against those).
i lol’d so hard
Jago, what’s some of ur best Rog advice? wrong thread, i know, but i caught ya hear. I know that rog can’t catch u with cHP if you fly behind him in the corner after HS, but anything else you can throw out there?
yeah vega red and i were discusssing this a bit a ago. he seemed to confirm it, but i only tested against ryu extensively. reversal jab DP gets stuffed completely by bison safe jump fierce…the thing that is making safejump a gamble for me right now is it all depends on your opponent going for a reversal, if its not a reversal but just a little late, it fucks over your safe jump, at least the version i use which is early jump in fierce instead of using it late and deep. this version makes reversal dp’s whiff instead of you landing and blocking. its easier imo as well…but the other version might keep you safe against delayed reversals or mistimed reversals or whatever.
EDIT: what vega red said. haha.
-so yeah, a bit more on why its a gamble: a player might not be good at timing the reversal but can get it close enough to correct. when i get nervous i end up doing this too, late escape move reversals or whatever. against a really really strong player though that is playing the mindgames along with you and keeping tabs, they will and should delay on purpose, throwing your game off. in playing theory fighter here, i have no idea how i would adapt knowing that the opponent has that option and is fully aware of it. i’ll chew it over some more. i barely slept and my brain is farting out. heavy rain is good.
There is a jump in distance where if you press fierce you will hit rog, but if he does Cr. FP you will be anti aired at that same distance you cannot press anything and he you wont be anti aired making him whiff and you can grab em or short short Scissors. ( this forces them to second geuss there ability to anti air you. you also should train yourself to see turn and rush punches you can round house those on reaction. (if you need help with anything else lemmie know).
Oh yeah and Lauduam (i dont think i spelt that right) good games the other day man i hope i can catch you online again i wanted to show you some shit i hope you got a mic.
Random tid bit which everybody probably already knows: After scoring a knockdown, dashing once and jumping towards your opponent, you will cross him up. But if you focus dash, shortening its distance, you will be in perfect range for an ambiguous cross-up.
Also:
This is character specific. An empty DR after a forward or back throw will never put you on the far side of Sagat and Zangief, for example, while it always will against Dictator. My guess is that it has to do with the height of the characters and the space they occupy when laying on the floor. I can also never seem to land on the far side after a forward throw.
okay i dunno if this is absolutely old news to everyone or not, but I’ve been doing a lot of experimenting in training mode and I’ve discovered that fierce psycho crusher crosses up on wakeup. I recorded Bison sliding into chun from the opening round distance, then meaty PC so that the middle of PC hits as the meaty while the first portion passes through her just as she is waking up. maybe this is old news? i dunno at first i thought it was kind of easy to do, but the timing is very very strict.
okay so I tested this on the entire cast and i kind of got the hang of it after trying it so many times…it works on EVERYONE except for El Fuerte. No matter how many times I tried I couldn’t get it to work on him. The rest of the cast however, get crossed up if done properly. The timing is all a little different on everyone, but pretty much similar for most of the cast. you can record bison successfully doing it once and playback against probably half the cast without having to make any adjustments. pretty cool, but i might just be completely late to the party here.
if they make PC GOOD again in super and it retains this property there could be some nasty okizeme mixup with PC that we could use.
Oh wow, that’s like crossup blanka ball, except a lot harder to time haha. The timing is a bit tricky though, seeing as its heavily dependent on how deep your slide is. I don’t think that has ever been brought up on these boards before. GS
Thanks for the heads-up, Bento! I’ll test that shit out when I get home tonight.
edit: deleted the rest, figured out my problem!
Good tactics for making Dic play more efficient.
-Ok so first of all, one of the basis of SF is to not getting knocked down. And the less you get knocked down the more of a chance you have to surprise your enemy on wakeup, turning defense to offense so to say. Bison has 7options on wake up, more if you count regualar specials too, he has backdash, teleport, block, EX DR(with or without the followup), EX HS, EX PC, and EX SK. Some of which are safer than others… If you only get knocked down once or twice that can leave your opponent guessing what you are gonna do on wakeup especailly with meter(Bison without meter=not so scary, but he has tools to get meter fast).
One thing about how you should play bison is pretty much never jump there are a few occasions that this is different but not jumping unless totally safe against opponents.
Examples: being jumping from full screen(upredictably of course) just to close the gap. I believe there is a thread about walking forward and neutral jumping and then walking forward again, well I think that is beginners getting over fireballs. I think there is a little bit more advanced way to get throw fireballs provided you have a little health to do so(chip damage). From full screen I will usually block or absorb a fireball or two(just to be a little more unpredictable), then I will forward jump timed so that I block the next fireball that is thrown. After blocking I usually have three options walk forward a little and block, neutral jump, or FADC the next fireball. I usually choose to block again and get pushed back to a position that when I jump in next I will be slightly closer to my opponet than the first jumping in from full screen but still safe, and usually from this range it is only a forward step and a s.mk to stuff any fireball attempt( you might have to rinse and repeat a couple of times to get a feel of how your opponet handles you successfully moving in over or through their fireball attacks). I find they usually jump backwards torwards the corner.
-The mk SK is SAFE ON BLOCK if spaced so that only the second hit of the SK connects. This is great for getting in against fireball chacacters once you have made them hesitate on throwing their projectiles for fear of EX SK. It can be pretty unsafe if you get predicable, because of the proper spacing needed in you try to do it on someones wakeup to many times you are probably going to eat a big combo.
-Keeping opponents cornered. Its I already posted about how I pretty much don’t worry about my charge until I get someone cornered, Bison has some pretty high priority pokes that that can be used at max,mid, and close range(s.mk,c.mp at max range, s.hk,c.mk at medium range, and s.lk,c.lk close range) to push your opponent straight into the corner. There are many tactics to get someone cornered but once they are there point blank range isnt your best option at least unless they dont have meter(or its Sim…lol). Point blank isnt good for alot of reason… like you have to guess if they are going to wakeup and grab or hit an invicible move on wakeup and reveral you across the screen, other things to worry about is if they like to jump back alot its hard to be point blank and keep a down charge because they will land on your head. And if you try to point blank a backjump/neutral with a EX HS and you time it wrong they will land and move out of the way you and you get punished big time, not to mention they got out of the corner and now you are knocked down.
Ok enough about why not to be point blank range, forgive me if I’m portray a wrong picture, because there is always a time for point blank range I’m just saying against an opponent you have successfull put in the corner for the first time and building a platform of how to keep that individual player in that corner. And once you have conditioned them to fear you then its all about the point blank range. Damn I’m rambling a little… gonna try to finish this quick now.
So I believe that the best postion on an opponent is just outside of c.mk range(for shotos) or there farthest reaching poke. Just outside of that range and maybe even another step or two back. The range that if you take on step forward your s.mk,c.mp will connect and one step back and it will whiff. This position is optimal for begging pressure on you opponent for so many reason, first of all if they like to jump it gives you more time to react and AA them with s.hk or HS rather than just having to guess if they are going to jump and using a preemptive s.hk to keep them grounded which is less safe. Another good reason is that you can punish your opponents whiffed attacks easily on reaction(oh wait I saw a punch or kick<SK!!!). And if its a character that has a sweep like Chun Li that stuffs your SK then give your a little more space because if your SK is getting stuffed its because your getting hit while in startup, but if you space it a little farther than your feet will land right ontop of Chun’s thighs. Focus attack is also really good against opponents who like to try to sweap to push you away on block or get a knockdown an run. Its about feeling out how your opponent handles the corner.
Other reasons this range I am talking about is so optimal is that you apear to be to far away to poke but in the smallest step you can hit them, so you can step in and out and harass the shit out of them with pokes, to get them to either block so you can dashin and throw, or you can bait them into using meter by stepping in and just blocking a couple of times. s.mk has very high priority at its max range and can be used to stuff alot of characters attacks.(its not the answer to all but it is definitely a solid ass poke), I like to use it just to get the person to hesitate enough so I can get closer without getting hit on my walk or dash in, then thats when I start using my hk in range so it won’t whiff a crouched opponent, also this is where the long block strings start to come into picture. I hope I am starting to paint a picture of how I like to condition my opponent to stay crouched and hopeless in the corner.
-HS DR shinangans can be so clutch especailly if you have trained your opponent to expect a specific one of the two at a given time or situation. A good example of this is getting someone cornerened or really close to the corner so you can HS more safe and see how they handle the follow up(I would do something like c.mk>HS or s.lk>HS to put them in block stun and make it harder for them to move out of the way of the HS). If they know how to stuff it then next time land close enough to them that they whiff when they try to punish the SD, giving you the opening. also if they are a player that is has baited your HS and punished with an air throw like Chun or Guile, that is a great time to throw an EX DR followup in their direction to make them think twice about the next time they want to punish your HS like that… Or if they like to try to focus your DR and you know it from whiffing a couple, land an EX DR right on there focused little head.
NOw I posted it in the right spot lol
holy wall of text lord bison! im interested but man its gonna take a while, good shit though ryboy.
Ok i got two more things that I havent seen posted anywhere…
- You can use EX SK for AA for max range jumpins. Example; ryu jumping in so his fierce kick just barely hits you, you can use EX SK to AA hit same with honda if he is jumping in with fierce punch at max range he can be AA’d with EX SK… it actually works on everyone if they jump in at max range.
- There is timing so that after you throw someone in the corner you can throw HS so that you will land on their shins as they are getting up, this sets them up so its much harder for them to react to the SD, expecailly if its EX. I’v been testing this and the timing is pretty strict, but not too bad, and the way I see it we Bison players play with strict timing regularly so it doesn’t seem to be unpractical.
I’ve done some testing of this myself, but reached the conclusion that it is just too hard to be a reliable tool. It would be nice if they widened his hitbox so the PC tail can hit as well. This would make it useful for said purpose, but still make it unsafe to use mindlessly.
I’ve gotten pretty good at doing it in training mode lol but yup, its kinda useless in a real match…too hard to time on reaction, but i’ll probably try it every once in a while in casuals for shits. too bad though…we coulda done CE style mixups with it, oh well. fucking capcom.