Protest followed by massive looting in STL

Wil · August 21, 2014, 2:51am

Community leaders in Ferguson are doing a better job policing than actual police - http://www.vox.com/2014/8/20/6047853/michael-brown-ferguson-protests-police-community-leaders-peaceful

SoVi3t · August 21, 2014, 4:25am

Probably do a better job at being government too.

MechWarrior · August 21, 2014, 5:56am

Yeah, because they have much to lose if it goes to shit like the federal one has.
That’s why it sucks so much; they don’t care, and they don’t have to, so they don’t.

Raz0r · August 21, 2014, 5:11pm

What George Orwell story is this?

BEWD · August 21, 2014, 7:20pm

^Pretty sure it’s the near ubiquitous reference to 1984. While I can see some similarities(as well as stuff similar to Michel Foucalt’s “Panopticon” theory from discipline and punish, which itself was based on an older proposed design for a prison), I’d say we still have a ways to go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6psBoDDJUo&list=FLYI9KgZ_zyP8H4zZZ_FZIrg

Here’s where a historical perspective will benefit you.

http://www.ebony.com/black-history/the-destruction-of-black-wall-street-405

What you don’t seem to know, and what the black bourgeoisie seem to forget, is that their wealth and class position only provides them an extremely thin veneer of protection from race based violence, which can go up in smoke on a moment’s notice.

PresidentCamacho · August 21, 2014, 7:50pm

blackartsviper:

PresidentCamacho:

blackartsviper:

PresidentCamacho:

Maybe that actually was the case here, but I’ve been made skeptical by people who scream racism at every single opportunity, all the way down to the comments sections on stories about black robbers being shot in the act of holding up people at gunpoint. That corn log floating around about “1 US black man killed extra-judicially every 28 hours by police or vigilantes” is a prime example, as even 10 seconds of consideration should make it plain that being “killed extra-judicially by police or vigilantes” generally means being killed in the act of committing a crime like armed robbery or home invasion (the numbers themselves also sound pretty goddamn dubious, but that’s beside the point), yet it makes the rounds all over the internet as “proof” that America is looking to gun down black men at every opportunity. Like I said earlier, it’s the boy who cried wolf effect: scream it all the time when it’s not true, and people are less likely to believe it when it is true.

[details=Spoiler]

And With this post you absolutely confirmed what I have been saying and what I suspected from you from the very beginning; that you were coming into this conversation just as prejudiced and as closed-minded as the people you were railing against.

You come out here spreading all of this bullshit about people being unwilling to believe any other idea that this murder could have been motivated by race, and now it comes out that you yourself had doubts from the very beginning that this murder was racially motivated because you’ve heard so many black people that you are less inclined to believe it. Like I said from the very beginning; hypocrisy.

Every bit of your posts from very beginning has been driven by an agenda to downplay the possibility of race playing a possible part in this case, and that any other explanation would be reasonable to explore.

-There could have been a struggle for the gun and he shot him after the threat had subsided. It wasn’t done out of race.

-This could have been a symptom of how cops treat everybody as a whole, excessive force but not racially motivated.

-He could have been a Capcom fan and was pissed that they don’t listen to the fans.

-He could have been upset because he couldn’t find the missing piece of the Triforce.

And for the record I must say the obvious I agree with you about the police state and how cops are often too willing to use excessive force as a means to show their superiority. And they will often use that against all communities; mostly poor communities. However, as usual you try to whitewash the idea of a possible racial component involved in police misconduct. It’s a general problem, but racial injustice is an issue that is overstated.

You also know what else I noticed? That you seemed to be only appalled by the use of military force by the rioters, not so much because of what is happening at Ferguson. No, because it was the implications that it could happen in all neighborhoods. The problems in that town seemed secondary to your fears that it can happen to all communities.

Plus once again, you wanted us to have an openmind that the possibility that this cop was a good cop who didn’t have a racist bone in his body, good premise. But in terms of Michael Brown, even from the beginning before the details of the robbery came out, you wanted us to ignore the reports of him being a good guy or in your words when you hear news outlets say this it “makes you want to puke.” Oh but you’re not biased. Now that makes me want to puke.

Plus please stop calling your conclusion, “speculation.” Because that’s what it is, a hypothesis/ conclusion. You might be upfront and say that this could be wrong, hey because my conclusion about this situation could be wrong too. But just like everybody else on this board and in this discussion, we came to a decision, based on the information that was provided to us by the witnesses and the police officers. And just like all conclusions or opinions, even if you admit that they could be wrong, once you state it to the public you can no longer claim objectivity and you open up your statements to critique and you showed who you prefer. What you’re trying to do is protect yourself and not allow people to explore your biases and whose side you prefer. And whose side of the story you prefer? Oh yeah the cops.

Which leads me to you defense of your obvious shilling of the official police statement.

The cop’s story left out the whole part about the threat ceasing before the shooting, which is pretty fucking important, considering that whether or not it was a defensive shooting hinges on that very fact. If I bought the cop’s whole story, I wouldn’t be saying that it sounds like he committed manslaughter at the least.

It’s time to break out the Cornette Face;

http://yetanotheratheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/2022640-CornetteFace.jpg

because in the words of the man himself; this is the face I give to somebody who is stunningly, astonishingly, bafflingly full of bullshit.

First off the second sentence is a logical fallacy because the cop’s side of the story didn’t mention him stating whether or not this was a “justifiable homicide.” What was reported by the police from his side of the story was that there was said to have been a struggle for the gun, the cop maintained possession of the gun, he chased after Brown there was a shooting, Brown was wounded and died at the scene of the shooting.

Here is another thing I noticed; you inferred that Wilson shot Brown after the threat had ceased based on the official chronology of events that was provided by the police. Indeed if you believe the entire chronology there is only one conclusion; that he shot Brown after the struggle had subsided. But like I said you have to believe the statement you were provided by the media.

The conclusion you drew about the shooting was exactly verbatim what the police said. There was no skepticism whatsoever from what was given by the police. This was a deliberate attempt at trying to deceive everybody who read this bullshit you wrote. Just because the cops didn’t outright call his label his actions you count that as an omission of facts, and distract us from the fact that you accepted the exact chronology of his events? Last time I checked an omission would be leaving out key EVENTS.

Here is something else. If you honestly believe that he omitted facts, then why do you believe anything he said? Wouldn’t that call into question every explanation of his events if he got caught lying by omission wouldn’t you fucking question everything else, including if there were a struggle? Sure he might have been telling the truth, but wouldn’t cause you to think twice about his credibility about everything he said? Once again, confirmation bias at it’s finest.

Plus thank you for clarifying what I felt was a contradiction about understandable not meaning right. But you know what the other part of my statement I believe to be true: that you were still grasping for an alternative excuse to justify it not being a possible execution and based on some form of hate. Indeed that was your intentions from the beginning because immediately upon given that excuse you made a sweeping generalization about all the people who believe that this murder being racially motivated believes everybody else who doesn’t hold that view are racist. Wide sweeping overgeneralization? Oh wait but I’m open-minded.

Speaking of wide sweeping overgeneralizations I will say something else; you made a statement earlier in the thread that could be only construed as racist. You were discussing about problems in the deficiencies in the “black community,” and what you viewed as our failure to have a desire to change our streets and lower the crime rate in our community, or in your words we are accepting and are indifferent to the crimes in the “black community.” There isn’t a week or a month or a day that doesn’t go by where we don’t lament the crime rate in the hoods and how many young black males turn to a life of crime instead of getting a square gig or go to school so they can join the middle class. We are often accepting that we are the only ones who can change our streets. We often have youth organization and college readiness programs and fatherhood initiatives that stress the importance of education, the trap of gang and crime life and not taking care of our kids. We lament that so many brothas aren’t trying to educate themselves, and the community in general are on the ground every fucking day trying to make a difference to end the quandary in our black ghettos. For you, you two-faced phony piece of shit to come on here and claim that we as a community is not trying to fix our problems and are as a whole and using certain examples of people playing the blame game of “the white folks is holding us down,” and not say shit about the fact that we know that we need to look in the mirror to change our communities and that there aren’t people everyday who are trying to improve our streets speaks of a man who is basing their fucking opinion on prejudices and a negative view of the entire race. That’s why I’m going to call you out.

You

Are

A

Racist.

You wrote all that to justify what you immediately suspected when I didn’t tow the line that Brown had to have been shot with no reason? That’s the problem with this whole thing, racism is the immediate conclusion in any such event, and anyone who suggests otherwise is labeled a racist. Yes, this is a generalization, as is the case anytime we speak about more than one person, but if you think it’s an “over-generalization” you’re deliberately fooling yourself, as even reading this thread offers plenty of proof of what I’m bitching about.

LOL
Yeah, I wrote this to justify what I immediately suspected when you didn’t tow the line.
-It had nothing to do with your constant need to bolster any other excuse as plausible
-It had nothing to do with you showing hostility to even the consideration that race played a role.

It had nothing to do with you showing complete bias towards the official chronology that the cops gave regarding the shooting (ie the struggle for the gun)
-It had nothing to do with you outright admitting that you were skeptical( i.e doubtful, in other words didn’t believe) that race played a part in this shooting because of the classic “boy who cried wolf,” axiom.
Give me a break. You were straight trying to fool us with this open-minded crap, I caught into your game, you got defensive and then screwed up and admitted that you basically came to this conversation with your own prejudices. You flat out admitted that you were doubtful that race played a part in this case because in your words “boy who cried wolf.” But oh wait it had nothing to do with evidence. It was me going by my own suspicion.

Want some other typical reasons to call me racist? I’m a libertarian of the minarchist sort, I regularly strongly disagree with Obama and liberal economic policies in general, I own guns, I have a concealed handgun license, I an am NRA member, I believe in calling a spade a spade, and I detest Marxism (which, for the record, is what the communist riot agitators and one of the contributors to this thread is preaching). So you can call me a racist all you want- I’ve heard it plenty of times before from the PC police and multiple liberals who can’t actually counter me in a debate. None of it changes what I really believe, which is that your decisions make you who you are, not your ethnicity, and by extension your ethnicity does not provide a pass for behavior for that is unacceptable for anyone else. Since you were combing through everything I’ve said here looking for proof of racism, surely you noticed the book I kept bringing up (Life at the Bottom), wherein I pointed out that most of the problems we associate with “black America” (I use quotation marks because such a group label is a generalization that is obviously not applicable to all black Americans) are happening in British “hoods” as well?

Oh god, the classic; I think you’re racist because of your beliefs crap. It had nothing to do with you actually making outright racist statements, no it is because “I’m some libertarian and white so you must think I’m racist.” Nevermind the fact that you painted the “black community” as a race of people who was unwilling to fight crime in its own neighborhood and instead solely blame the problems on the white man. Wide sweeping ignorant overgeneralizations of an entire race-oh but I’m not racist. How can you construe that for being racist? How dare you focus on that post? No you must think I’m a racist because of my beliefs.

Do you honestly believe that many of the people screaming racism from the get go, screaming racism at anyone who thinks there was more to the story than the cop blowing away Brown entirely for being black (which you’ve basically admitted was your first impulse towards me) in a town that’s mostly black, screaming racism at every bit of press released that doesn’t fit the story they want, are guaranteed to scream racism if anything less than being drawn and quartered happens to the cop, and in some cases even screaming racism at people saying destruction and looting are wrong have spent much time looking inward for solutions to their own problems? Because it sure as shit looks to me like “the community” (again, quotation marks because this is a generalization) rises up with such passion only when something can be seen as reinforcing the notion of racial oppression. Anyone suggesting that welfare, the romanticization of “thug life” by the entertainment industry (coupled with the belief that society has already victimized you), counter productive feel good economic policies, the destruction of the black family, and the notion that blacks should be held to lower standards cause more problems than actual racial oppression today is labeled a racist or at least a denier of racism, and if they’re black, they’re usually called an Uncle Tom, an Oreo or at least a fool. The sacred cow of sinister Klansmen hiding behind every bush, looking to hold black Americans down, has probably done more damage to modern “black America” than anything else at this point, as most people growing up being told that they’re victims will always believe they are, will see most things as proof of it, will be quick to follow anyone who reinforces the belief (i.e. democrats in America), and will almost always be held back by the thumb they imagine holding them down. As with any problem in life, the more you well on it, the bigger it seems, and the more it dictates your decisions. This is not to say that racial discrimination doesn’t exist, my point is that has been made into something larger than it actually is by the extreme focus on it.

More sweeping generalizations to reinforce your small-minded beliefs. To pretend that this doesn’t happen in our neighborhoods is foolish. But it is also foolish to think that there aren’t some kind of countermessage that doesn’t take place in our communities and you vastly, vastly, vastly overstate the people who calls another black person an “Uncle Tom or an Oreo or at least a fool,” for going against the negative stereotypes or the notion that blacks should be held to a lower standard. Indeed, you will often hear just as many black people call out some motherfucker in the street for “coonin,” “shucking and jivin” or living off public assistance without trying to get a job, wearing pants off their ass, the clothes they wear or the way they speak because they feel that they are selling out their race. This shit happens everyday, and this debate happens everyday. Once again you’re speaking on a subject and communities you know nothing about.

What do you think the results of Ferguson will be? What shape do you think the town will be in when the smoke clears, and how long will it be wrecked? What good came of taking to the streets immediately with cries that demanded “justice” before anyone was even sure what legitimate justice was in this case? Will all this have any effect beyond degrading American race relations further, raising another generation to see themselves as victimized from a young age, and reinforcing the suspicion that “black America” is irrational and violent in the minds of people who already believe it?

If you honestly believe that this one incident is what sparked this outrage going on in the streets then you are an idiot.

If you want to effectively fight legitimate racism and improve the the community, fight negative stereotypes by proving them wrong. Drop the victim attitude, be the best person you can be, work hard and be responsible, and shame/shun those around you who embrace and perpetuate those stereotypes. Stop supporting entertainers and media moguls that profit from selling those stereotypes, and turn some of that rage you’re throwing at me in their direction. Stop supporting professional race hustlers and race hustling politicians, and try listening to the voices immediately blocked out as racist/Uncle Tom without that preconception hanging overhead. If you believe in the bulk of your last paragraph, I would hope that most of this already applies to you, yet you still toss out the “racist” card without pause, so I’m skeptical. Yes, there are plenty of black Americans looking to improve their communities from within, and even more who are breaking racism’s back by simply turning their backs on stereotypes, disproving the bullshit of what blacks are “supposed to act like”, and beating/disciplining their kids when they feel the sway of that crap- I feel pretty safe in assuming that few, if any of these people are protesting or hurling charges of racism over the internet, much less calling for revolution and race wars as some of the empty cans online are.

I toss out the “racist” card without pause? No I toss out the racist card when there is evidence and even though you are trying to back away your earlier statement about how as a community we seem to accept (or be indifferent) to crime is flat out one hundred percent racist. It is coming from the mind of a person who has this preconceived notion of black people who try to pass the buck and only show outrage towards whites for the problem in the community, but seem to treat crime as a way of life and natural. When you apply such a disgusting label to a race and seem to think that it is apart of their culture and way of life; that’s racism or at least prejudice.

As for police discrimination, the general use of excessive force, and general disrespect of the rights of citizens, I keep saying cops should be wearing cameras while on duty. Bad cops will be clearly exposed, and those lying about police actions as a defense will also be exposed. It seems like a pretty common sense solution that the Ferguson train wreck (both the initial incident and the aftermath) makes an excellent national case for. Since the focus is on race and the law, I would also make the case that this would be a good opportunity to really push hard for an end to the war on drugs, as it too has been a trainwreck for America, and is a huge contributor to the whole problem of crime and punishment in black communities. You can say whatever you want about me, you can conclude whatever you want about the state of racism in America today, but regardless, those two things are likely the only legislative ideas that would do any good on the topic at this point. I would carry on about how the nation’s law enforcement and legislators should be bound by the constitution from the sort of excess that has gone on here, but unfortunately, that document has long since been an afterthought for the government.

Once again you only show your concern and outrage at this events not because of the possible race implications but because it fits into your ideology. It can be about excessive force by the police, the war on drugs, and the anxiety of the police state because it fits into your right-wing Libertarian beliefs. But the racial aspects isn’t worth mentioning.

BTW you said some real horseshit about “So you can call me a racist all you want- I’ve heard it plenty of times before from the PC police and multiple liberals who can’t actually counter me in a debate.”

Please, from what I see whenever you get backed into a corner your only mode to go into is fallacies. You ignore the points I made that poured damage on your argument then you try to make it about something superficially similar and pretend that you won. That is creating a strawman. Then you play the role of victim accusing others for ad hominem attacks, without acknowledging that you admitted to your own prejudices. Plus one more thing about a debate; remember the defense you made after I called you out for your shameful shilling of the police’s explanation?

Oh yeah you said nothing about that huh little fella.

Because you know that I caught you in your bullshit and outright using deception to try and cover up you tossing the salad of the Police Department ass with Apple Jelly. You didn’t want to say shit about that because you knew that you couldn’t defend yourself cause if you did you would have looked even more biased. As a debater you are nothing special and it was downright easy to see through your bullshit. The only thing difficult was putting everything into coherent words so I wouldn’t go all over the place. You’re not PresidentCamacho you’re Viper’s Bitch.

[/details]

Oh man, you caught me, you arrogant fuck. The cop’s story sounds more plausible to me, because the idea that a cop blasting someone multiple times without some sort of struggle or imminent threat sounds unlikely, much less the version wherein Brown is skipping along, harassed for no reason beyond being black in a majority black town, then shot when he puts his hands up. Is it possible that reality is closer to the version you swallowed? Yes, but unlikely, and I’m sure the officer’s records over the last 6 years were immediately searched with a fine tooth comb for patterns that would suggest racism as soon as his name was released. Also, any cop, especially one in a town like Ferguson should know damn well what’s going to happen if they shoot someone without just cause, which is something that should give even a Klansmen cop pause. On the flip side, we have Brown, who was most likely panicking because of the robbery, and given the documented tension between Ferguson’s black community and the FPD, probably had that healthy “fuck the racist police” attitude you’ve displayed here. You have to consider the potential motives, and the only motive your accepted narrative offers is “Brown was black and the cops are racist”. Like I said, I think there was a struggle, and the cop went way too far when Brown got away from him, which, if true, should be manslaughter at the least. Either way, there’s a big difference between considering one side of the story more likely and running to the streets demanding “justice” (meaning the cop is guilty and must be punished) and racism before a thorough investigation has taken place. Yes, we have a problem with the legal system where it seems like cops get away with far too much, but this doesn’t mean that all cops are guilty either. The on duty cameras I’ve brought up over and over are the best solution to that problem.

From the time you jumped into this thread until you took it upon yourself to annoy me, you have been the loudest voice throwing down the race card. Quite frankly, I’ve wasted way too much time on you already, otherwise I would dig up your quotes about racist cops, racist conservatives, racists talking about the riots/looting, etc. You and people who think like you are exactly who I’m bitching about, and yet in the very same thread you accuse me of a straw man argument when I complain about the thing you’ve done multiple times in this very thread? Also, did the “other things I’ve been called racist for” part not sink in, as the point there was to demonstrate how often the term is flung around freely?

My points about the “black community” (a generalization) are easily observable in the reaction to the Ferguson incident (where Brown’s shooting was immediately trumpeted as cold blooded racism), in my neighborhood (where thugs and junkies run amok stealing, robbing, dealing, and shooting each other, and kids who aren’t yet thugs look up to and emulate them without their mothers beating it out of them), and in your behavior here. Name drop local positive influence groups and the scoldings of grandparents with sense all you want- those are great, but ultimately their voices seem to be drowned out by voices like yours (screaming racism) from all over the media, politics, professional rabble rousers, and the entertainment industry (which pushes thug garbage on top of screaming racism). If half of the energy currently focused on Ferguson was focused on beating down the influence of that thug shit, things would surely improve exponentially. Racism isn’t going to disappear overnight, but it will never go away (or even shrink) with attitudes like yours. If these views and observations make me a racist in your book, then fuck you, I don’t care.

Jimmy, if you’re still reading this thread, I apologize that I don’t have time to respond on account of sinking so much time into talking to this guy.

Raz0r · August 21, 2014, 7:52pm

He’s way off and using a tired cliche then.

pedoviejo · August 21, 2014, 9:25pm

http://www.worldstaruncut.com/uncut/72743

black dude with knife approaches officers. He seems like he’s charging at them. I’m OK this death.

See this is why police need to be recorded at all times. It eliminates, doubt right then and there. Those extra 3 shots where unnecessary doe. And now the black community is going to use this as more fuel. Even though that black dude was clearly in the wrong.

SoVi3t · August 21, 2014, 9:42pm

I personally don’t feel the amount of bullets matters, anymore. Play any FPS and watch people inexperienced with killing people fire entire clips into people. As a cop, or anybody, if I had to shoot somebody, I am going for the kill, and I would likely unload a full clip, to ensure the job is done.

Spirit_Juice · August 21, 2014, 10:16pm

There was an image floating around on Twitter saying that the police said the guy was three feet from them when they fired but it was clearly eight feet, although “three feet” was probably said shortly after the incident and in a situation like that it’s probably hard to remember the difference of five feet, to be honest. If the armed man is approaching and possibly charging officers, does it really make a difference between eight feet and three? The image kind of pissed me off because everyone damn well knows that they would have shot at eight feet too if some guy with a knife was approaching/charging them even WITH guns drawn.

In regards to Ferguson, it seems like things are starting to die down? The past two nights I don’t really recall seeing any major tweets of chaos going down.

crucades · August 21, 2014, 10:17pm

Easy there mr professional killer, no seriously what the utter fuck man? You cannot be serious with the bullshit.

Also you n Pedo both ok with that kill? Was that 10 shots on a guy shouting “SHOOT ME MOTHERFUCKER?” Really?

Slow walking, moved away from the car circling before people ragdolled with bullets, cops could shoot him at least in the fucking hand?

I hope your both trolling on this otherwise your both dumb as fuck, this is some bullshit.

pedoviejo · August 21, 2014, 10:20pm

iirc, training for military and police say 15 feet is the min. at that distance a knife wielding individual can kill you easy. gun or no gun.

@sovi3t, while that may be true, the last three shoots where fired after hesitation. as if to finish the job. that would land a citizen in jail for excessive force.

crucades · August 21, 2014, 10:25pm

your training, so your saying you and your partner wouldnt be able to use those shots on the legs at least then rush em with your nightsticks? You guys dont use stab proofs under your vests?

next time I go to the States am gonna be dressed like this, shit is too crazy there

Spoiler

http://chimpmania.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10756&d=1343775521&thumb=1

edit: changed the pic, gotta be safe from the law first i guess

MCP · August 21, 2014, 10:31pm

Approximately 21 feet:

Joshkaz · August 21, 2014, 10:31pm

Leg shots and Arm Shots are all Hollywood and Video Game bullshit.

In real life you miss all the time with a gun. Even if you are a good shot. Its why they train you to aim for the Torso. It’s true you’ll see some of those guys who land an arm/Leg shot in one go on a moving Target, but its far and few between and a lot of Luck involved when you can just aim at the largest part for a more guaranteed hit.

crucades · August 21, 2014, 10:33pm

Josh you missed the pic I posted a few days ago, German cop shot out a guys leg with 1 shot who was armed with a machete and sword and arrested him, sent him to the mental hospital, same thing happened in New York, cops put 10 rounds into him as well.

Joshkaz · August 21, 2014, 10:35pm

Because the cop in Germany got a lucky shot in. It would have went in a totally different direction if he missed the leg shot, but it just so happened he had luck on his side.

crucades · August 21, 2014, 10:36pm

You can call it luck ill stick with a better attitude and adequate training, also the perpetrator wasnt black in that scenario might have made a difference. Idea 2 armed men cant defuse a situation involving 1 guy with a knife is a joke.

MCP · August 21, 2014, 10:42pm

The average cop will aim for the torso. Improbable to be able to purposefully disable a charging opponent by shooting at the legs due to adrenaline, fear, etc.

Disabling a person is better done with a taser, mace, etc, when the circumstances allow it.

Joshkaz · August 21, 2014, 10:44pm

You can swing a knife insanely fast. Not something you wanna go up against up close or even give him a chance to get up close.