Profound & Pointless

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
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I can dig that. I mean, a couple weeks is a VERY long time to learn everything you could possibly know about a character. And, I guess autocorrecting your EX Tatsu is really hard, too. After all, you HAVE spent all of your time on him since the game came out, and it’s been out a long time.

well, if someone makes you block a string, and then jumps at you, d+RH, for some reason, makes you slide under them, getting you out of that situation. shrugs like i posted in the “I refuse to believe Guy is a bad character” thread, if you would properly use his tools, there would still be some things to complain about, but you really would find that you have a lot less to complain about. and, cr.MP beats a lot of jump ins. if you can’t see it or use it properly, i can’t help ya, bro. cr.MK can go under a lot of things when used against certain moves. it’s a situational poke. many characters have them. like Chun-Li. she has MANY situational anti-airs, but you won’t hear most Chun players say they are bad, just that you have to use them correctly. Chun is a much better character than Guy, but that was just an example. and, even though a couple of people will disagree with me, i have had success using LK or MK Tatsu on wake-up IF someone tries to meaty me with a low move. again, situational, but if the situation presents itself, you hit them for some damage, and send them flying.

it works, trust me. cr.MP stops a lot of jump ins. even cr.MK works on a few, like all of Dudley’s except j.lk. i don’t understand the complaint about not having enough meter, to be honest. i always seem to have meter to spare… shrugs I also don’t really have EX Tatsu whiff…

I can dig this, I guess. Hozanto has very limited uses outside of combos, but if he could punish fireballs on reaction with it in SSF4, i think that might make him a little ridiculous. at least it’s more reasonable than that one guy on these boards that wanted EX Hozanto to have full body invulnerability. that would just be nuts, imo… but, usually, if i am close enough to want to Hozanto under a fireball to punish them, MK Tatsu works beautifully. i go through the fireball and VIOLA! they take some damage and fly into the corner.

No one said you wouldn’t have to work to get wins, but Guy can do both of these matchups, even though I agree he is at a slight disadvantage against Ryu. Guile is quite a bit tougher to beat than Ryu is. But, you can mix up your jump attempts between completing your jump, and canceling momentum with the d.MP elbow. sometimes, you can bait an SRK or something with it, and then you can get in or punish. plus, you could always just focus the fireball and move forward. harder to do against Guile, but seems to work some against Ryu. you kind of have to think outside the box and be patient.

dood, EVERYONE knows that Shotos are capcom’s babies. they can get away with murder a lot of times that other characters can only dream of. the ‘not comboing off of Bushin elbow’ thing doesn’t bother me, i guess, because i rarely use it, and land it even less. you can combo off of the d.MP one, which is the one i use more. i only use Bushin flip if i think it can advance me somewhat safely, or to anticipate someone going into the air and grabbing them with it. even then, again, i rarely use the flip. i can dig that the demon flip stuff is ridiculous, but at least Akuma’s kick out of it isn’t an overhead any more.

good choice. he’s pretty good, from what I hear. if you enjoy playing him, go for it.

i honestly have not had a big problem with this. i mean, just the target combo by itself. depending on what character you’re playing against dictates the number of cr.LPs you can use before the target combo, though. but, imo, that just comes with learning the character.

while some matchups can be tedious and/or frustrating, i still don’t think Guy is as bad or has as many problems as what Spoki or AlboShinobi would have you to believe. he can get the job done, but he does have to work harder in some matchups. play him if you enjoy him, i guess.

not in the context it was used. these guys were saying that Guy had no tools, and Dan is the best example in SSF4 of a character with no tools. so, in essence, i said that Guy is considerably better than Dan because he has tools that can get him out of situations.

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He has a normal, that is used which is only useful if he isn’t knocked down. If he gets knocked down he is open to all Jumpins with nothing he can do but block and wait. With Guy all you have to look for is the cross up because then you dont have an AA option, if its a jump in right in front of you if you time it right all EX BSK will hit, rather than just one, If Guy was able to Auto-Correct his EX BSK then he would have a good AA unless it can hit on cross up on start up not in the air when its already pointless most of the time.

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Timing is strict, but not that difficult. You can fuck cross up with EX BSK.

I guess the motion is a qcf + KK when the dude is right above you.

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Also I see no problem in Guy having EX hozanto with full invunerability, Blanka has that with EX Ball, I’m pretty sure Honda can do it was well. Why can’t Guy? It’d give him some more options to scare zoners.

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Honda and Blanka =/= Guy. Their charge character, having full invunerablity move is what they need. Not Guy’s case.

I agree with having full Invblty on Ex hozanto would make it a little broken like shiki said.
Ex hozanto is fine the way it is.

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yeah, that’s the motion.

EX Ball is nowhere near as fast as EX Hozanto, and Ball doesn’t knock down on hit and send you into the corner, and can be punished by a bunch of characters, even on hit. Honda has full invulnerability on the first few frames, but not through the whole move. i don’t think Honda can go through fireballs with his either, as that would be equally as crazy as Guy being able to. plus, yeah, Guy doesn’t have to have a charge to perform his move, so he could just walk forward and do it.

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Would of been a nice touch… even if it was on start up -shrugs-

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Blanka, Bison, Ibuki, Cody, Honda, Balrog, Rufus, Gouken, DeeJay, Gief, Ken, Ryu, and Hakan, All have horizontal moves that they can use on reaction to avoid fireballs and Guile’s sonic booms and they all have better range than Guy’s options. Making EX Houzanto invincible is not too good, it makes it viable. Plus EX Houzanto’s range isn’t even that good. What are you using it in outside of combos? Nothing, because it get’s stuffed by everything. GTFO. You’re in denial bro. Guy’s tools are just not good enough you have to work too hard for your wins right now.

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well, I use EX Hozanto to punish people trying to bait with focus. That’s the main use I see for it. plus, the way Guy is designed would make it maybe too good, due to the fact that EX Hozanto is so fast and doesn’t require a charge. i mean, that’s one reason why EX Green Hand is so good with Zangief.

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Ex Hozanto for punish thing. And yet, I’d rather keep my meter for something else…

You’re right about it, but imo probleme could be solved by a faster hp and mp Hozanto.

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lol to people who say that c.mp isn’t meant to be an anti-air. Take a look at the hitbox. The hit-able hitbox on his head shrinks while being protected by the BIG RED attack hit box in front of him. Making this move viable for anti-airing moves that are comnig at you from mid to close range as long as the angle of the attack doesn’t distort the opponents hit-able hit box. Ken can do the same thing with c.mp against some jump ins and Guy’s is better at it. Normals have been used as anti-airs for a while but people seem to think you need whole body invincibility to be an anti-air or something. People are way to spoiled by SF4 system, and need to spend some time in ST or something.

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EX Houzanto is also -8 on block. Which is free Ultra for some characters. I’d say giving it invincibility would balance it just fine. Yeah again you’re punishing whiffs and focus baits, but good players rarely randomly whiff which leaves no opportunity to use it. And If someone whiffs a shoryu or something, I’m not going to waste bar, especially when I can do something else of equal or more damage.

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EX Houzanto has been listed as -6 on the wiki and on event hubs and pretty much everywhere else I’ve seen it listed meaning that most ultras in the game outside of command grab ultra’s can’t punish it. I’ve never had it punished by a reversal ultra outside of those situations but I’ll test it today to make sure.

EX Houzanto also punishes a lot of ranged footsies that are normally safe to alot of characters such as Spaced out Ryu sweeps, blanka’s c.hp, rufus c.hp, seths far s.hp, gief’s s.mk (which is really important to gief’s footsies in that match because it’s his way of dealing with low to the ground high property moves that snake under his s.mp) and it also punishes a good number of fadc backdashes like shoto uppercuts which are normally stupidly safe on block.

EX Houzanto has 200 Stun 160 Damage 10 frame start up and sends people flying to the corner.

EX Blanka Ball is 150 stun 110 damage, does not knock down, doesn’t give blanka positional advantage is -15 on hit but character dependent on punish on block but goes through fireballs.

Honda’s Headbutt is 200 Stun 160 Damage, knocks down on hit and has 8 frames of invulnerability which makes it really only good for a defensive tool as an anti-air, which makes sense because honda is a defensive character.

Giefs Green Hand is 100 stun 130 damage, knock down, good position, -9 on block, loses to throws.

All these characters tools seem to suit the very well, the purpose of EX Houzanto is for combos to move them to the corner, punish things that are normally hard to punish because of space orientation, anti-focus, and whiff punish. Blanka doesn’t get nearly half the reward for hitting EX Ball as guy gets for hitting EX Houzanto. Honda’s EX Headbutt is safer than other variants but with limited invulnerability its’ really only good as a anti-pressure anti-jump in move and not for going through fireballs. If people wanted an anti pressure anti-jump in move EX Tatsu is your choice. Sure it’s super unsafe as hell but charge characters tend to be a lot safer on their specials than motion characters. I’m assuming that people want invulnerability on EX Houzanto for anti-fireball anyway, that seems to be the general consensus.

Good players rarely randomly whiff specials and normals, true, but Good players make other good players whiff through movement, footsies and baiting. Lets not pretend that all good players never whiff moves, break all throws and block all mix ups. If your sitting there waiting for good players to just randomly whiff instead of trying to force the situation with movement than that’s one thing.

If your using c.rh at the right distances as well as c.hp, and s.hp and run/stops, you will bait focus out of people for you to have the chance to use EX Houzanto to break focus. There is risk/reward involved in that situation as focus can mess with the tools you use to bait them out but that’s kind of the point.

Dealing with fireballs with Guy isn’t automatic like people want it to be. It’s a process of slow encroachment where you have to be patient and observe and make sure you take advantage of any opening you can get. If that’s enough to make a character absolutely terrible than Honda is God fucking awful in this game. When your not a shoto or sagat, you have to deal with fireballs most the times in this game the same way Guy has to, by being smart and patient and minding your spacing and what your opponents doing to get your opening. Instead people want the ability to blow through projectiles and not have to think about them at all and give no consideration to why maybe “Move A” can’t do that.

It’s almost always true that when you say “Character A has Move B” that can do what My character should be able to do with C, that the statement is made with no analysis of the whole situation at all. No one looks at the reward each character gets for hitting said move. The properties, start up, punishment, of said move. How that move integrates into the playstyle of the character of said move.

No instead that want to say, well blanka can get his ,highly punishable, non knock down, non-position changing, and negative on -15 on hit so all it does at best is simply reset the mid range footsie situation, special move to go through fireballs.

So my faster, harder hitting with more stun, higher speed at traversing area, knock down, send them screaming to the corner where I want them 90% of the time move should to.

The analysis of that is so incomplete it’s dumb. There is nothing wrong with wanting a move to be better, but if you want EX Houzanto to be the “stop shooting fireballs at me because now that I have ex I don’t have to think about it anymore” move than say that instead of making dumb comparisons of two different moves of two different characters with two different play styles that get two completely different situations on block and hit for their move.

The lesson here is when you compare different moves from different characters and blindly say “He has something that can do it why can’t I”, it’s usually a very shallow and, all in all, completely unthoughtful argument.

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How is is shallow when half the cast has something to a similar effect? Honda also has an Ultra to deal with fireballs as well as butt slam on the way up from certain ranges.

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Ex hozanto has trouble punishing people who like to throw out normals cause it usually gets beat from many normals in my experience. I have also been thrown out of ex hozanto (don’t know if my opponent expected it or just got lucky guessing). It also gets beat by a lot of things and has a few good uses but it would help if they buffed it one way or the other.

Guy without meter is useless though so always keep an eye on the meter. Also, I’ve had target combo whiff on some characters without adding any lps to it and from close distance. I’m glad they’re at least fixing his crouch hit stun bug lol

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Honda’s ultra again is only good for fireballs at close range if your shooting fireballs at close range to honda when he has U1 stored you deserve to eat the ultra. His super is his best way around fireballs as it has a lot of invulnerability and traversal is fast enough to punish fireballs hard. Unless the fireball is really bad on recovery or you guess prematurely buttslam will more than likely be block, or focused and punished horribly. Honda is weak against fireballs and none of his tools change that fact.

And it’s not shallow to say someone should have a tool to handle certain situation. It is shallow to say that EX Houzanto should go through fireballs like another move when you don’t compare the move and see that ex houzanto going through fireball would be way better than almost any of those tools you say that half the characters in the game have. Just like saying Honda has buttslam, so Guy should have EX Houzanto go through fireballs? Buttslam is not a solution to fireballs it’s a tool you can use to get around them when wisely used but Honda is just simply weak to fireballs. This is similar to the same argument that Honda players use to say when they said Honda’s EX Headbutt should go through fireballs because Blanka’s EX Ball could.

Characters are allowed to be different and have different tool sets, strengths and weaknesses. It’s not a crime that a character doesn’t have a easy mode way around fireballs either. If it’s enough that you can’t EX easy mode around things to kill a character for you than that’s fine. That’s not shallow either. Again though you are not analyzing all those options that other characters have that can handle fireballs, and comparing the reward they get for hit, and how easily they can punish fireballs with them, than as if EX Houzanto could as well. If you compared the moves side by side you would see that EX Houzanto with the ability to blow through fireballs would be worlds better than probably 90% of all the moves the other half the cast have.

It’s not a crime for a move to be broken, it’s not like capcom has never done something that wasn’t broken before, but the comparison is still shallow. There is a reason why EX Houzanto doesn’t go through fireballs because the makers of the game thought that the move would be to good if it did in it’s current state (with the speed of start up, the ground it covers in it’s traversal and the speed that it covers that distance in all while knocking down, sending them flying to the corner and breaking focus to boot). Are the developers the great bastions of knowledge that could do no wrong and make every move as it should be, no they are not, but let’s not pretend they made a major oversight by making EX Houzanto the way it is.

The argument is shallow not because of the wish for a tool to handle projectiles.
The comparison is shallow because your wishing for ex houzanto to go through projectiles and state that it should be so because:
A) Other moves have the ability to go through fireballs. Even though these moves in general have very different properties.
B)You deem the move to be pretty much useless, which it isn’t by any means.

Like I said it’s not a crime for a move to be OP. It’s not shallow to want a tool for a given situation.

But EX Houzanto is not useless and anti-projectile EX Houzanto is a bit to powerful when compared to all the tools that exist out there for other characters given all consideration to everything that your asking for.
If EX Houzanto did go through fireballs it probably wouldn’t’ traverse as fast or as far probably, it would be harder or not punish certain footsies outright like it does now and probably wouldn’t give the same knock down, damage, and positional situation as it does now. If s.jab didn’t lead into bushin chain maybe it wouldn’t wiff on all characters when they crouch. The developers may not be perfect but they did put some thought into why and how to make the characters in the game.

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All I’m going to bother saying is that Guy’s safe jump set ups are the real deal. Anyone who thinks that they’re only good ‘on paper’ hasn’t worked enough on it, both execution-wise and match up wise. Saying that Guy’s safe jump’s don’t work against Sagat is proof of that- they do work against Sagat, you just need to delay your jump by 1-2 frames (and its practical if you’re willing to work at it for months, which is reasonable given that people have taken 2 years to figure out the original characters). The ONLY character that Guy’s safe jumps don’t seem to work against is Adon, and that’s because he gets up faster than normal, not slower.

Btw, even against Ryu/Ken/Akuma, the vertical jump after the slide is still VERY good. Don’t press early jump HK, since that gives the opponent a billion years to react… alternate between pressing jump MP as late as possible and pressing nothing and blocking. Its a guessing game that’s in Guy’s favour.

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When I was speaking of the safe jump “setup”, it was obvious I was talking about ones that are easy such as run slide instant neutral jump HK… or claw’s back throw instant forward jump HP. I wasn’t saying that it DOESN’T WORK if you delay or TIME IT YOURSELF. If that were the case, you are already arguing a moot point… because everyone in the cast has some sort of safe jump if you TIMED IT YOURSELF. You aren’t comparing apples to apples (which is what we are trying to do when comparing character tools) if you have to factor self timed stuff… which EVERYONE knows would be possible if you spent XX hours or XX months doing it. Here’s an even more simple example. If Character X can achieve victory for player John with only 2 weeks of practice… while Character Y can achieve victory for player John with 10 weeks of practice… It is safe to assume, with all things being equal (knowledge, conditioning, everything) that character X is better.

When we are talking about “safe jump setups”, it is assumed to be one that is braindead while putting you in an advantage. IF you worked hard for months trying to perfect the 2 frame timing of safe jump-ins ON YOUR OWN without the help of frame counters such as whiffing normals before jumping.

Now… I basically stated that the braindead version of holding up right after a runslide doesn’t work on those characters… and that still holds true. If you argue that I have to delay it and learn the timing for a few months, then I can argue a higher tier character like Rufus will get even better in the hands of the same skilled individual in that same 2 month time frame.

And on the shotos, I’m not so sure it’s a guessing game in Guy’s favor the way that you stated it. I think its an equal guessing game at best. Jump late and block has a counter, which is a throw, but you can tech it so its neutral. Jump right after slide and press HK is beat by SRK, so that’s +1 for shotos. If they block, you have momentum so I would argue that it’s +1 for Guy.

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Yeah more playing less complaining please .
I played Tokido’s gouki with Guy and did pretty well with him , had the advantage actually . I think Guy can be a hard matchup for gouki.

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I’m going to be honest here. This whole attitude here is why American mid-level players will NEVER reach the kind of quality that Japanese mid-level players have… and in turn, the high level American play will suffer because top American players won’t have enough top-mid level players to push them harder, unlike the Japanese.

Stop fucking worrying about “high tiers” and “low tiers” and “less work” and “more work”. SRK players talk so much about a ‘character requiring too much work’ or a character requiring ‘no work’ as if this is an MMORPG character that they’re grinding out. This isn’t an MMORPG and manning up on your execution IS NOT the same as grinding out levels.

Just figure out what makes the character work and DO IT. Jeez.

I think so too, but I haven’t played any strong Gouki’s yet. Would like to hear why you think it might be advantageous for Guy.

Offence:

  • Slide combos FORCES Gouki to take some sort of risk, even if safe jumps don’t work against him.

    • Add the fact that Run>Slide OS is a good 50/50 against Teleport escapes… Guy can stun/kill him very fast with a few right guesses using options that don’t require meter or Ultra.

  • Ex Bushin Leap (and fierce Bushin Leap?) seem able to punish jump back air fireball or even jump back Ex Air Fireball at certain angles. Or you can just run> slide under. Or Ex run> Slide under. It just doesn’t seem like Gouki has much of a run away game that can work against Guy.

Defence:

  • Can’t judge since I haven’t played strong Gouki’s with Guy, but it does seem like Gouki can Demon Flip> Dive Kick safely against Guy… The angle is too awkward for Ex Hurricane to hit.

Would like to hear how the matches between you guys went… or see some vids, lol…

I’m also curious. How did you play with Tokido? I can’t imagine a France-Japan connection being playable o.O