-12 seems about right to me.
Either revert the changes or give him 950hp.
Or give him a 3 frame normal… oh god how I wish he had a 3 frame normal.
It was bound to happen sooner or later, unless Capcom were going to buff him every version. Character designs like Seth never go down so well, no matter what tier he is.
"1: Seth almost always has a fighting chance so long as you’re as disciplined as you are solid and at the worst… chaotic. Since his dizzy count is practically the same as his amount of life, you basically have 3-4 chances on defense to get out to eventually reverse perfect somebody (cheers to that happening).
2: If a player is using a character that can punish backdashed DP, and does it, I’ll say “more gdlk than me breh.” Honestly that takes great presence of mind to block the DP, read the backdash, and punish appropriately on reversal timing. I figure we’re still in the state of meta where the person blocking would just be looking to block more, crouch tech confirm to combo, or neutral jump. But essentially that’s just another reason not to depend on DP so as to not be predictable with it against those next level players. Use it when you think you’ve adapted to them rather than as a lazy solution to another player’s pressure (I’m not suggesting you don’t do this). I’m still having a hard time punishing blocked DP FADC forward myself.
3: I agree Seth loses in neutral. When a character has better walk speed than you, gives them way more room to play with than you can. Like you want to get in and do damage, but if they can just stay at a certain distance and zone you out, playing as Seth is a bad time. I do like to think that regardless of which character I’m using, I can be the lamer player. Like I won’t stop blocking so long as I don’t have a reason to do anything… if that makes any sense.
4: Also right that Seth’s crouch tech options are piss poor. But people using other characters will crouch tech with 5 frame normals anyway, so it’s slightly irrelevant to say Seth is just as bad."
1.when you are playing someone with solid anti-air and solid footsies there is almost no way for seth to get in without a giant guess that is also a giant risk, but if you mean a fighting chance by running away and waiting for your opponent to make a mistake then yeah i guess you could say that but cant you make that argument for any character in the game? x character has a chance if you have x trait to deal with x situation even though your options are so highly limited you are forced to rely on your opponents mistakes. that is an obvious statement the only thing you are saying is that seth has less chances to escape knockdown situations that all other characters.
2 the only thing that means is that you are playing with people who haven’t adapted to the -5 change yet or don’t have the skill to do this and nothing more. see how you have to use the word think? its a risk right? yes that’s exactly what is is unless you spend 3 meter so functioning as intended as a nerf to all characters but that’s not the issue you must realize that seth is the hardest hit by this system change as it was a big part of his game so there should be something to slightly compensate for the loss of this pressure but instead lets take even more pressure/mixup options away right?
3 first half slightly understated but i get the idea. the second part makes absolutely no sense at all if you are down in health or positional advantage the only type of players that would let you “lame them out” are low to mid level players because essentially what you are saying is if i play x way it wont matter that x options were nerfed which might be true except for this to happen you must rely on an opponents mistake which if you are playing a solid player aren’t handed out so liberally.
4 no it is not because you act like all the things that make seth nonviable at high level play are mutually exclusive they aren’t all of his gaping flaws lead to what the character has become now. also you act as if all of his flaws can be atoned by just playing better but you seem not to realize that solid players wont forget these flaws or not look at the matchup.
what your argument comes down to is the opponent not knowing the match or not being able to play the match the correct way which is a fine and honest answer to the thread in a sense but only from low to mid level play. so for the creator of this thread yes to low/mid level play for fun but if you are playing competitively and trying to go to tourneys no it is not worth it there are far better characters and seth has no outstanding traits that make him a good choice in fact from the way you have to play seth i would say seth is a negative character choice because it takes so much more effort and you are working harder for what easier characters can do better and sometimes are put in situations where you need a miracle to stand a chance.
ex: you are fighting a bison which is considered a most even match-up and you are down in health by 200 you are slightly out of range of bison’s s.mk in low/mid level your opponent may let you jump in or make some sort of mistake that allows you to get close and your chance to mix-up comes. now in a tourney against a solid player the bison will not give you a free jump in nor make a critical mistake leaving you at mid-range your options here are the same but the player is different and the options you have wont have the same effect and are essentially all unsafe except to run and hope that he will make some sort of mistake that will give you the positional advantage. of course that is only one situation but you will find solid players wont give you free get in mistakes.
As for seth changes i would like to see him reverted but the system changes are a massive nerf to seth more so than any other character. they should give him a small but meaningful buff such as akuma s.hp cancel or cammy getting more hitstun on her spiral arrow etc.
just for your infomation everybody, seth mixup game after spd is still solid even with dwu. The setups are just way more character specific and less braindead. Quick example, against ryu, after spd, dash forward, tiny step and late divekick in reaction to the “technical” (coming down from thejump, not top of the arc) it’s safe against every single dp, and if done a bit later (right over height restriction) it’s a “crossup divekick” setup (it will whiff if ryu holds forward to block crossup tho) that will hit even if hes crouching.
If they give him Yoga sniper back like they were going to, I’d be content with that.
Seeing as you’re new here (that’s your first post? really?), I’ll condense my points as much as possible.
1: I don’t know what you mean by giant risks and giant guesses. This is a concept based upon how much life you have to spare, and what options for damage output the other player has. For me to just dash forward into SPD/c.LK range isn’t a giant risk, but it gets me in. That’s usually all I need to get my momentum started. Maybe Seth doesn’t have the best footsies, but he can play them. I can play footsies with him. I just can’t go to town with it like I can with my Rose.
2: It wasn’t a big part of my game. I only used to do it because it was safe and lead into other Seth shit. But has DP FADC ever really been worth it or have people just been getting used to the over all game mechanics for the past 5 years?
3: Do you understand the concept of forcing mistakes? I’ll leave it at that.
4: Yeah Seth also has a back teleport and a free as day Ultra 1 now. I don’t know what else you’re trying to say here. When has a 5 frame normal been such a flaw?
FOR THE RECORD: Yesterday I went 2 hours up with a crew to Portland to play Lord BBH’s Bison (probably the best Bison in the pacific northwest) in the grand finals for a weekly tournament coming out of winners. He managed to reset the bracket against my Rose then proceeded to 3-0 me. They were all pretty close matches (last round he stole with a double KO) but it was LAME AS FUCK. It was nearly a mirror match both in style and character picks. Before he reset the bracket and 3-0’d me, I thought about switching it up to either Seth or Yang but didn’t. I felt like I needed an extra dimension to my game to get an advantage even though Rose is top 10, has footsies as solid as it gets and has been my main since 2009.
It’s not just “in Seth’s design” that he has to take risks to win. He can be the solution to a certain player’s style If they are willing to just block you all day. You land SPD enough and then you know the other player is going to jump the next time and you can use a variety of anti-air to counter that. After that they’re cracked. I’m obviously being simplistic here, but just having Seth on deck would’ve given me way more useful options than Rose in that match-up.
Lol, you played Matt. I’ve played against all those cats for WAY too long, but BBH only plays mystery games nowadays. 
It’s true, one of the better Bison players, but sadly one of the only one’s left (almost no one plays Bison anymore since there are so many characters that run Bison over).
Let me just answer this point. I wouldn’t mind the dp fadc nerf or the tanden cancels nerf, if only ex tanden worked properly. Now for the people telling me that it would be too powerfull, let’s talk about that for a second.
Ex Tanden : costs 2 meters, resets the juggle count, can beat alot of reversals AT THE RIGHT range, can catch people out of pre jump frames but you need a close.fierce to do that, beats every backdash in the game, and you get big damage off of it
Dp fadc : costs 2 meters, beats most reversals ( almost all of them in v2012 ) without the need of a proper spacing (to beat reversals with ex tanden, you need to space it with a string that is almost never a true blockstring, unless you use close.jab, which whiffs on crouchers, aka if they are mashing you gonna eat a nice fucking dp) , can catch people out of jumps, period! (not only pre jump frames, and doesn’t need a normal to work), beats some backdash, you get meh damage off of it.
I hope i didn’t forget anything 
comeon man, Happy Medicine and Tampa Bison (i don’t really like his bison, but you can’t say he isn’t good) still play, then there are a bunch of lesser known bipson players that are pretty good but that don’t travel very often
Yeah he still plays SFxT of all fucking games and says he hates Ultra. It totally fits his style though.
@Cicciammè If you can only name 2 other real Bison players, then I’d say that qualifies as “sadly one of the only one’s left”. But hey I’m still pretty much unknown, and I’d have to count my own Bison in that category since BBH would do shit to get me thinking “yeah I would’ve done that too.” It was like playing chess against myself.
nah i can name way more than 2 top level bison players,i just wanted to see the rest of the conversation first. There’s like 2 thousand bisons in jap, Gagapa in europe, Momo in south america, a ton of less known online warriors in the us, i also suggest you to check out this dude Ferris hes a pretty good bipson 
You misunderstand, I meant in relation to the PNW (where he stated he played him at). We used to have 4-5 Bison mains up here during the Vanilla-AE days, but that changed over time. I’ve met Happy Medicine at one of NorthWest Majors previously, nice dude, good player. It’s not that I couldn’t name more than a couple of Bison players (played against Andre a long time ago at my first Evo as well), but the statement holds true, there are very few Bison players doing anything notable nowadays.
Yeah, Matt’s good people. One of the few encounters I’ve had with him (post-Vanilla SF) was when he was playing in the GF Mystery Game tournament at NWM4.
Oh sorry my bad. Btw i just don’t think the character is dead competitively, a lot less rappresented at super high level that’s for sure, but there’s still a lot of bisons holding it down at every majors.
Nidhogggg! And yeah I sort of just meant in America that are actually placing high or repping well at even weeklies. Like is there anybody for WNF or NLBC? All I can think of is when Zeus subs Bison against Rufus and other various MUs.
For sure, I kind of figured it was a misunderstanding (I’m sure I could have made my original post more clear in the first place).
Yup. That’s actually one of the last games I did commentary for in the PNW.
Hell, even I’d sub Bison against Rufus (but then again, I enjoy Seth v Rufus, it’s a ton of fun).
I’m not a Bison expert by any means, but i honestly don’t think the rufus bison matchup is really in bison favor
don’t be ign’ant.
In my opinion, Bison beats Rufus most of the time. How can you claim something like that with Bison if you are not an expert by any means? Your opinion won’t hold much weight if you don’t know much about the character. Your ignorance is showing.