PDX Weekly Tourney / Casuals

I have thought about this more than once in the past because as a player in the higher level arenas of a few other games (Descent, Counterstrike, Quake 3, Tribes) I have experienced similar dynamics and discussions between the top players. As a developer it really interests me to examine endgame play, and on this subject I really have only come up with the following:

Every game is going to be “broken” at high level gameplay unless the character used by each player is exactly the same. I should probably go into depth on this as it’s really more of an intuition than a thesis I could spell out, so I will attempt to elaborate because I know this is going to definately elicit some responses.

If any element of the game has an advantage over any other the players will find and exploit that advantage, indeed that is the bulk of what real fighting is all about, but this is a platform of physical equality that enables us to fight in a way we would not normally.

The main attraction of competitive video games I think is that we are all on a semi-even virtual playing ground, instead of having to take on Zangief in real life you can get behind a fireballing shoto and take him out (or try) without fear of getting hurt so young kids and other casual players of this game can really have a blast with the vicarious action.

Competetive players however like to use the game as a platform to measure their actual skills on, and when that is occurring my personal philosophy is that to get the true results of a test like that you would need to both use the same character or it becomes a much bigger dynamic to deal with and does not let the actual differences between the players show as well.

When fun is concerned this is probably a good thing in most cases as noone likes a bruised ego and a certain character may give you something to hide behind to avoid that and therefore have fun while you play, which is really what it’s all about anyway to me.

When I switched from Ken to Gouken I was really saying that I need to run to a different crutch to see how I can do with it, I felt limited with Ken and had to run to something I felt more powerful with. That has a special dynamic all it’s own that I enjoy for what it is.

I personally enjoy the diversity of a large cast and admire the delicate balancing act that the devs have to go through to make it even remotely acceptable as a high level game, but I also feel that if you really want to have an even matchup between the players themselves you have to take the character advantages out of the equation. An example would be how Descent put you both in the same ship and the only thing that could stand between you and another pilot was knowledge of the level, the same thing goes for Quake where you are both in exactly the same guy and the only difference is YOU.

I am not even really trying to make a point to sell anyone on, just explain how I see competetive gaming as a different beast than pleasure gaming and because of that it should have special competetive “equipment” (i.e. a game with only one character) and I know that’s my own weird approach to it but I figured I would share to add fuel for discussion.

i gotta agree with this man :tup:, also good reads Jermoie.

Everyone is obsessed with me now.

I haven’t been around because I’m just not that interested in playing SF4 at the moment. Game has gotten hella stale and it just isn’t that much fun for me lately. Yes, I’ve tried playing other chars but no char is as much fun to me in that game as Bison, I mean I still dabble around a but with others but they’re just not as interesting to me. And now that Super’s coming out in a few months, why bother putting that much more time into a game that’s going to be completely outdated?

Not having as much fun with Tekken 6 as I hoped to either, even after the online patch. I can only take really short sessions of that before I want to play something else.

If you guys want to get better at SF4 that’s great, but there’s not much motivation in it for me, I’m sorry. Nonetheless I probably will show up somewhere soon (although not this week) to chill with peeps and maybe play a couple games, and I’ll be sure to let everyone know since my whereabouts are apparently very important!

Yeah I agree with the idea of brokenness. I think I read a dev interview for Street Fighter saying just that; if we wanted a perfectly balanced game, every character would be the same and the game would be boring. I guess games always break down at higher levels, the question is how much do they break and is it still fun to play at that point? If SF4 was so broke that you could only pick Ryu or Sagat to even stand a chance I probably wouldn’t play it at all. There’s proof against that, so I’m still playing.

Lord BBH: Well shit man, you are the local man to beat. We don’t want your glamorous company, we want to beat down your Bison and we can’t do that if you’re not around can we?

All kidding aside, I really think that you basically represent one of the highest bars to reach locally and people are hungry to play against that because they can get better off you. Gotta carry that mantle in a way since it comes with the territory of being a winner, but you’re certainly not obligated to do anything obviously. I think most of us would just love to play you as a skilled player.

I will play you in any game you want if you do ever come this way, maybe we could get in a fews rounds of Combat, airplane mode with the triple planes, no machine guns, and no walls. I am down for competition in any game anywhere any time. I would issue an open challenge to anyone to defeat me in Warlords but I don’t have paddles.

It’s the dynamic between characters that allows people to use the game effectively against each other, the sheer pile of information in the game is enough to make it possible to win constantly over a player with a lower level of game information. The “high level” gameplay is really gameplay that includes potentially all of the information available in the game, something a human could not really achieve but theoretically possible I guess. Every combination of moves from every character and from every possible position is something you can strive to learn but there will still be that last 2% of information you do not have that people will have to locate and use to beat you, that and faking you out and other trickery. We can all move a stick and press buttons, but the information guiding those movements is what helps make the fight easier or harder.

I could definately stand for a buffing on Vega and Dhalsim, two of my favorite characters, but I think they are close to the edge of being very powerful so buffing them too much could make them overpowered. I am anxious to play SSF4 and see what we have to work with this time around after a large portion of user input has been taken into account.

Dhalsim goes even with Sagat (5-5). Vega isn’t doing well. Tier disparities in sf4 are lower than most games that are played majorly mainstream. Especially if you don’t count dan as he is designed to be bad intentionally and is considered a joke character.

Ask Vega about his invulnerability… that’ll show how powerful he is.

And Sim is, from what I’ve read and experienced, the natural Sagat counter. Yoga Tower can go over fireballs as well as having the teleport ability.

I have never been a fan of the tier system, it makes me feel like the characters I enjoy playing are not really viable but I personally feel like it’s up to me to try to make them viable, even in the face of the vega/sagat 7:3. I will take that matchup just for the handicap, and subsequent learning experience. Call me a romantic, I don’t like feeling like a character I am attached to is useless so I pretty much refuse to let them go, lol.

Better be careful with that Dan stuff or Simon might come and beast another friggin 200 win streak with him. Ugh. Thank you for all the lessons you have patiently parcelled out to us, Simon.

Okay you got me. I just want my ST drills back :smiley:

David your smart and I’m glad u c why me and numerous people hate on sf4. Hopefully super is somewhat intresting.

U play sf4 how it wants you to play, it should not be like that

Yeah I kind of feel like why’d they even put the drills in this game. The only real reason to use them that anyone has figured out yet is hk drill to reset Sim’s jump (i.e. jumping over tiger shots then hk drill down).

Yoga Tower is beastly too. Throw invulnerability in opening frames, sweep and low attack invulnerability, fireball avoidance after a couple frames and you can use it as a taunt at the end of matches.

numerous people hate on every game TBH, so its all really in what you enjoy. though i do agree about having perspectives from different fighting games etc. and i do feel for the people who cannot enjoy themselves in SF4, but it is what capcom makes it.
i definitely cant wait for all the improvements SSF4 should bring.

Thanks. :tup:

I think it’s safe to say that Capcom has never made a perfectly enjoyable fighter on the first pass. A lot of people I talk to keep comparing Third Strike to SF4 saying they love 3S more. I tend to agree with them, but 3S is a game that’s had 2 revisions to it essentially. I’m pretty sure SSF4 will be much more enjoyable/polished.

what up bro. i sent u message a while ago for some tekken action on xbox live…
whats up???

Lol, I’m totally offline right now. I don’t even have a system of any kind. @_@ I go to Jetay’s when he hosts, and I randomly host out of my own home sometimes, perhaps you should show up to some of that. I need more competition in Tekken, for sure.

(To host I just steal friends’ boxes)

3rd Strike is a 10 year old game and is still enjoyed today.

SF4 will be barely a year old on console before its 1st revision.

Perfect? Not sure.

Enjoyable? For some.

SF4: 3rd Strike Again will most likely be the best version of SF4. Count on it =)

yea thats a stretch. We’ll have to do it at lloyd sometime whenver peeps are playing.

i just read this thread and i have to poop