Ono has interest in working with Street Fighter Alpha series again

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
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So basically, you say two button throws shouldn’t exist because you can grab someone’s normal, even though I’ve never even heard of someone normal grabbing Ryu out of his cr.MK at max range or mid range or any range where the grab normally wouldn’t grab. Not only that, but in my opinion it STRENGTHENS the footsies of actual grapple characters since it means they can ghetto kara their grabs by grabbing normals. Also, I could be wrong, but I’ve never seen this happen in games like BB (all grabs) or KOF 13 (command grabs), leading me to believe it’s not an inherent problem, just like how you can remove crouch techs. Also, how can you call them online fests when MvC3 with it’s one button grabs has characters being thrown ALL THE TIME?!

Then you say they slow the pace of the match. You’re entire wall of text made as much sense as this:
"Ice cream sales increase in the summer. Murders increase in the summer too. Ice cream causes murder!!"
Did you not stop to consider that maybe the reason CvS2 (which has some long as hell matches btw) or KOF 13 are faster than SF3 and SF4 because the game speed is faster? Because there are better universal movement options? More in depth combo systems? Faster paced footsies and such? No no no, let’s try and close in on just two games. 2nd Impact and 3rd Strike. Both games have the same basic concepts, even though their still so very different. But one has a one button throw and the other has a two button throw. Now I haven’t seen every bit of 2I high level footage out there since it’s been rather hard to even look that up, but that little bits I’ve seen, I didn’t exactly see rounds end in 10 seconds. And like wise, I don’t exactly see 3S sets take 10 minutes to finish. SF4 is slow paced because there’s not a lot of high damage in that game. And due to how strong vortexes are, people go for hard knockdowns more than actual damage because they get more out of that. Not to mention the pacing of the game. NOT because people throw a character and then back off for 10 seconds and then walk back up to keep fighting when the ref gives the okay.

Finally, you say their bad because they make you guess (snicker). Completely ignoring how recent arcsys fighters have done it where it’s part prediction and part reaction, I’m just going to pretend your right and talk about one button throws for a moment. So, two button throws are all about guessing and do nothing to add to the experience, as signified by your SF4 example. Meanwhile in MvC3 land, Magneto jumps up, and tri dashes down and does H. If you jump, he can get a throw without even intending for it to happen. If you stay standing to block it, it could be an empty jump to a low. If you block low, get blown up by the overhead.

But hey, that’s not fair to talk about MvC3 because it just has a bad way of handling throws, right? right? Ok, lets talk more on 2nd Impact. I walk up with Ryu and do forward/back HP. I also buffer a qcf as I do it. If I don’t see a throw, I just press HP again and now I’m safe. If I get the throw, I’m fine. So no matter what, I’m perfectly okay because even if they tech it, they can’t punish me. Whereas if my opponent saw my throw coming and moved out of throw range, I’d whiff that throw and they’d punish me for outplaying me in that moment. AS THEY SHOULD BE REWARDED. And if for some reason you try to say “oh but they could parry it” we can apply this to other games too. In Guilty Gear, I run up with Sol to do a normal throw. If my forward or back HS comes out, I just cancel it to gun flame and FRC it to keep pressure. Hell, if it’s back HS, I just jump up! In the VS series, I can cancel whiffed normal’s so it’s not like the options they have to punish me are many, even if THEY tried to bait out a tech from me.

And taking a step back, I jump towards you and do a j.HK. You block it. I walk up and do my one button throw. You totally were able to tech that far better than a two button throw even though it was the literal same setup. Hell, exclude the walk up because I was already close enough to do the throw. I just had to delay my time a bit, just like I would have to do with a normal throw.

ONE MOAR THING
The comparison of two button throws to El Fuerte is nothing short of retarded. On one hand, I’ve already covered throws. On the other, we have a character whom is built so heavily on vortex that he has nothing else going for him. But he’s a story for another day of big ol’ text.

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We’re never know now but this was apparently a problem in SFxT. Back when Seth work for Capcom he explained the reason why throws suck in that game because the Tekken characters could get thrown out of their target combos. Reverse kara throws he called it.

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you’ve never seen someone’s normals grabbed?
you’ve never seen that?
what games are you playing?
i’ll give you an example. i’m juri playing against a bison.
we are footsie’ing.
i’m walking backward with a life lead to bait an opening since he will naturally walk forward to pressure me since he has to due to my life lead.
i’m walking backward, he’s walking forward.
i do an appropiate hk sweep attempt.
the very tip of juri’s toe of my hk sweep reaches the very edge of his front leg’s hurtbox. the bison user hits throw of all things.
his throw’s hitbox catches the very edge of my hk sweep’s hurbox…i get thrown.
FROM A MILLION MILES AWAY!
like…literally a massive amount of space between the 2 character’s bodies.
yet, bison, somehow someway manages to throw me of all things…like if bison, a charged character, now has grappler properties. since he is now throwing me from a grand distance.
>_<
how am i supposed to know that i’m going to get grabbed from that amount of distance?
how?
unless we’ve got psychic powers…there’s no way i, you, or anyone will know that bison will manage to throw you from that huge distance seperating your juri from him.
there’s no way you’ll know the very outskirts of your sweep’s hurtbox will be punished by it being caught by the very edge of a throw’s hitbox from a non-grappler character.

WILL YOU ATTEMPT A WELL TIMED, WELL SPACED, BAITED SWEEP EVER AGAIN IN THE ROUND?
OR WILL IT, THE ACT OF GETTING YOUR WELL SPACED SWEEP PUNISHED BY A THROW, CAUSE TREPIDATION IN USING THAT FOOTSIE AGAIN?
WHY EVEN BOTHER USING IT?
WHEN THROW>EVERY NORMAL IN THE GAME
WHEN,
THROW>FOOTSIES
ONLY BECAUSE THROW CAN BE INITIATED WITHOUT ANY REGARD TO THE SPACING BETWEEN CHARACTERS SINCE ITS A 2 BUTTON COMMAND WHERE APPROPIATE SPACING IS NO LONGER OF ANY SIGNIFICANCE FOR THROW ANIMATIONS TO OCCUR.

THROWS>FOOTSIES
ITS WHY IN FIGHTING GAMES WITH 2 BUTTON THROWS, PEOPLE WILL ATTEMPT THROWS MORE OFTEN THAN IN FIGHTERS WITH SINGLE BUTTON THROWS.
HENCE, WHY PEOPLE SPAM THROW LIKE CRAZY IN FIGHTERS UTILIZING 2 BUTTON COMMMANDS FOR BASIC THROW!
IT THEREFORE SLOWS THE ACTION OF THE GAME DOWN, IT CAUSES PEOPLE TO USE FOOTSIES LESS, TURTLE MORE, CROUCH TECH MORE, AND GAMES WITH HARD KNOCKDOWNS WITH NO EVASIVE ROLL OUTS OF KNOCKDOWNS GET THEIR ACTION/PACE SLOWED DOWN.
IE,
2 BUTTON THROWS MAKE A MATCH MORE BORING FOR NO GOOD REASON.

imagine guilty gear if it didn’t have single button throws. single button throws that are 100% dependent on spacing to initiate throws.
imagine guilty gear with 2 button throws.
where you now could get thrown for sticking out a far reaching footsie from a mile away.

gtfo if you think people won’t be attempting throws more often with 2 button throws implemented.
and gtfo if you think that won’t slow the high action, blazingly fast pace down even if its just minutely.
of course it will.

and yeah, 2 button throws lead to guesswork.
damn right it does.
as long as you can grab someone and NOT be chest to chest close to your opponent…since the only thing that will ever give you a clue into assuming you’ll get thrown is by the space between characters…it’ll always be a guess.
always.
if i’m playing CvS2, and i’m using let’s say, rock howard, and i’m up against ken, and we are chest to chest close, i’m going to assume the ken user is going to throw me, and i’ll appropiately tech.
the shallow distance that will cause throw animations to occur is the clue i get i’ll get thrown by a non-grappler type character.
in a 2 button throw fighter…THERE IS NO CLUE! distance between the characters no longer applies. it becomes more of a guessing game whether the opponent will attempt throw or a footsie. since 2 button throws can punish even far reaching footsies…its gonna be guesswork from that point on.

dude your crazy if you think 2 button throws doesn’t ruin the action, pace and footsie metagame.

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Throws don’t grab the same vulnerability boxes that non-throw attacks hit. Characters either have a specific throw vulnerability box, or their pushbox acts as a throw vulnerability box. And these don’t stick out during attacks like regular vulnerability boxes do. At least, that’s the case in all the old 2D games whose hitboxes have been analyzed. Maybe SF4 is different, I don’t know.

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maybe.
i guess so coz i know i’ve been thrown out of tons of normals.
edit:
yeah, i checked.
in older 2D sprite games, you really can’t get your normals thrown. but like i said, you can still get thrown while not being chest-to-chest and i’m against that coz it becomes more of a guessing game regarding teching them or punishing them in general.
i dunno about 3D fighters though that implement 2 button throws. which guess are the majority of them? coz i can’t think of a 3D polygon fighter that has single button throws right now.

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SF4 has big throw range, and throws are fast, on top of that- watch any SF4 player try to land throws in 3S, and the difference will become clear fairly quickly.

In general, throw mechanics don’t have much to do with the number of inputs, as much as how various games set ranges, startup times, etc. Throws went from being instant in A2 to having a 5-frame startup in A3, and it changed a lot of the close-range game, because you can’t throw meaty attacks anymore, and you can generally jab people out of throws if you option select crouch/tech.

People get thrown out of everything in SF4 because throws in that game were designed to be more like throws in the SF2 games, only with longer ranges (or maybe the get-thrown areas of the defender are larger), annoyingly-long animations and deliberate throw/crossup options added afterward for almost all characters.

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edit: As for Alpha 3

Crouch canceling is good IMO, it’s just that infinites that are the problem. Would remove air combos from the Marvel games because some of them have infinites? It helps approximately as much as it hurts, and opens up the air more (valuable real estate in A3 because of the juggle system), because air-to-air counter hits become a bigger deal:
[media=youtube]4aT4I4AUrk4[/media]

Capcom tried to fix this by removing crouch canceling Zero 3 Upper, and considering that there are zero tournaments for that game but people still play arcade A3/Z3, it wasn’t a magical fix to all of the problems with the game. In any case, you can take out infinites without removing crouch canceling, because all V-ISM infinites rely on inflection, which is the state after you finish a VC, wherein your attacks are faster and bounce the opponent higher than normal. While I think of A3 the same way I think of the Marvel games (don’t get hit), that’s the way I’d go about fixing infinites in A3 if I were so inclined. Even then I wouldn’t remove inflection entirely, just change it on a per-character basis (ex: Honda juggling with three jumping Fierces after damage scaling not really a big deal, Vega doing 70 jumping Shorts is).

FYI damage setting is up waaay high on this video.

I have mixed feelings about starting with full meter, though I’m not sure how much it would change in practical terms: V-ISM characters build super meter at a faster rate than A-ISM characters, so you would see a lot more running away to build meter. But I would suspect that overall it would balance the game to some degree, even if it made a lot of mid-tier V-ISM characters worse in the process.

On a personal level I like it- firstly because it’s different, secondly because supers are relatively weak compared to A2 and having more options right away kind of makes up for the loss in damage/traps that A2 had (unblockable supers, etc). Also, unlike ST, A2 etc, most supers in A3 are primarily for combo usage or obvious situations like anti-air, etc. So it’s not like you’re going to get hit with a super or even a VC for throwing a fireball from across the screen (in most cases) or standing up- you have to get hit with something, make a bad read or get put in a bad situation, first. Also, in the case of any of the games with EX meter or especially A2, meter management is a somewhat/much bigger deal than in A3, because you have more options. With a few exceptions, level 1 supers and Alpha Counters aren’t very good in A3, so building your meter up doesn’t make quite as much sense in the context of the game as it is.

TL;DR- if you started with 0% meter in A3 you’d see fewer supers being used- not just because they’d be less accessible, but because they’re not as useful, especially at lower levels. Which isn’t necessarily bad, but, just saying.

Mr. Satan?

People who weren’t very pleased with Capcom’s most recent efforts in the fighting game scene might be skeptical of their ability to successfully make games the way they were able to, and would instead make a disappointing version of a familiar property.

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adon can get thrown out of lp rising jaguar. believe it or not. you can cearly see the start up frames of r. jag…then watch him get thrown. you can even throw people out of a special move similar to a dp special in that game.
nuts.

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Holy fucking christ. I did not read most of that. But, I’ve never heard of two button grabs catching extended normals (like a sweep) it wouldn’t surprise me if it worked in Strekken. You can’t just shit on two button throws because one game uses them differently. 3S is not all about throws. Of course if you’re dealing with someone who wants to parry everything then throw is a good option, and you have to commit to that throw unless you’re using Makoto/Hugo with a good command grab and even then you can be baited to do that. The throws in 3S are very deliberately part of the meta game, if it had one button throws the options you would have available would easily diminish.

I’m guessing this guy played 3S and thought to himself “Fuck Throw Strike!” and whipped out MSword and wrote an essay and kept it handy for just such an occasion.

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Push boxes used as the throw vulnerability is still being used to this day GG and BB. Throws in SF4 are a check to if a character is in range pretty much like breakers except a lot more leeway. In Breakers you had to be in a certain spot.

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Holy shit at all these giant text walls. Over fucking throws of all things, good lord. I think I’ll come back after this is done.

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You guys are really really dumb if you think 2-button vs 1-button is a debate

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You’re right.
We should take the Streets of Rage approach and make no-button-throws. You know, where you go into a throw by running directly into someone.

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I personally welcome the debate. SRK has been kinda dull lately, as far as the inside depth of fighting games imho. As for the so-called Wall O’ Text, I dont mind the reading at all = )

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You can throw people out of the startup of moves in any game, just like you can hit them out of it. That’s not something unique to two button throws (you’ll see it happen more in 1 button throws actually because traditionally they have a quicker startup).

And your building of text doesn’t counter my points or even cover them all. Show me proof that Bison can some how throw Juri out of her sweep at a range he shouldn’t be able to during it’s active frames (you can’t btw). Show me Noel throwing Ragna out of his 5B when he’s not in throw range. Etc etc.
ALSO I CAN CAPS LOCK TOO COME AT ME>:(

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Two button throws are generally better, but they’re shit in the air.

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That is the dumbest thing I heard in awhile name a game besides sf4 or sf3 you can do that in and show me a video of it happening.

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I don’t know if it happens in Skullgirls, but I know I hear the sfx for a move, and then get thrown.

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Yeah, it’s a known fact that two button throws are the motherfucking shit.

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There’s hitbox display. Turn it on and you can see when you’re throw vulnerable and invulnerable. And yeah, you can get throw out of move startup unless that move is throw invulnerable.

I’m guessing this is about normal throws?