This question was posted before and the answer was said to be in Gunslinger’s old ken thread. The options he laid out after a tatsu, although good, were not as comprehensive as I wanted them to be (he did mention that he still had testing to do).
So, what do you do after a combo that with a tatsu? I noticed that for taller characters like Sagat and Zangief, an instant overhead jump back + HP seems to catch them off guard.
Cheers.
Simple question regarding Tatsumakis:
How come the frame advantage for LK, MK and HK versions seem a bit off when comparing recovery with blockstun?
LK recovery-> 12+8 (that’s 20), blockstun ->24. How come the frame advantage is -5 instead of +4?
MK recovery -> 14+9 (23), blockstun-> 24. Shouldn’t we have +1? Frame data shows 0.
HK recovery-> 12+12 (24), blockstun-> 24. Math says 0, frame data says -1.
Someone care to enlighten me?
Blockstun info on the frame data is wrong? Recovery is wrong? Frame advantage info is wrong? I fail at frame data? What is it?
Also, it’s funny to note how frame data only considers frame advantage for the 1st active frame of a move. Which is fine and dandy for most moves, except for certain things like meaties with gigantic active frame windows, or specials like psycho crusher that can hit on the very last frame and leave a character like Dictator with +6 Frame advantage instead of the supposed -16. Just a stupid rant though. Feel free to ignore this last paragraph.
I wish I could explain that… unfortunately… I fail at reading frame-data… but weve learned what works and what doesnt… no matter what the frame-data says we know LK-Tatsu leaves you with a huge frame-disadvantage… we know ex-tatsu leaves u with a small frameadvantage and so forth… so even if the numbers are confusing, and maybe even wrong in some cases… it doesnt change the facts weve accumulated throughout all our experiences…
i believe it has something to do with their recovery frames being counted inbetween hits of the tatsu… but it’s dependent on spacing. His tatsu’s are really hard to expain on paper because they all move him closer, which affects the non active hitting frames inbetween kicks, which affects they’re recovery, which affects your frame advantage…
I’m sure that with their testing they found that walking up to the opponents face and doing the tatsu so that the first grounded hit lands gave them said frame advantage (i should say “disadvantage”) so in the case of LK tatsu, it would be very rare to get the full -9 frames, most likely somewhere around the -5/6 ish mark. And thats also why we will consistantly get +1 on ex tatsu, because its almost impossible to not land exactly in their face. more testing would be required, but would be unecessary. HK and EX tatsu’s will almost always land point blank, and therefore always give you the said -1/+1 which is why we still never use HK tatsu on geif.
I may be mistaken and missed some intricacy in the way they noted the frame’s on SRK WIKI, but either way, its a non issue and wont affect your frame data reading on 99% of the games moves.
I believe the only decent explanation is that the hitstun provided in those tables only applies for the first hit or so. Something silly like that. Being that the “knee” part of the tatsu seems the most “consistent” out of all the tatsus, maybe that’s the reason why it’s 24 frames of hitstun for every tatsu.
I’ve seen some silly data on the tables for other characters as well, where the hitstun frames provided only applied to a really obscure part of the special/normal.
Some examples are easy to understand, like Guile’s sweep.
It’s 2 hits, and the frame data indicates 17 recovery frames and 17 frames of block stun. That means it should give you 0 frame advantage. But no, it gives you -3. Why? Because the last hit has 4 active frames. Supposing you hit on the first active frame of those 4, then you still have 3 unused active frames.
Those 3 unused active frames are added to the recovery frames of the move (17), and bam! You now have a mix of 3+17 recovery frames (20, basically). But it causes 17 blockstun. 17-20)=-3 frame advantage. Easy to understand.
In the case of Ken’s tatsu, it’s not really that easy to understand. As such, I decided to explore other tatsus. Like a case study…
Ryu’s tatsus all have the proper frame advantage when comparing recovery with blockstun (I decided to ignore frame advantage on hit here, since it knocks down the opponent).
The only tatsu that’s still wrong, is the lk tatsu.
17 recovery, 20 blockstun, last active frames are 2. One hits, the other gets added to the recovery, bam:
17+1=18.
18-20=-2.
Is it -2? No, it says -6.
The other tatsus are fine. When applying math, it actually makes sense. And people, you have to understand that this is some basic stuff, not some crazy ass situation where Hitboxes could be in order, or air recoveries. This is basic 1+1=2. It always worked out fine. I’m simply stating that there’s something wrong about the frame data on the tatsumakis.
Let’s see Gouki.
Gouki’s tatsus are F’ing insane in terms of frame data. MK tatsu hits 3 times, and yet the frame data indicates that it has 2 x 3 active frames plus 1 last frame. I’m going to suppose it’s something like 3(0)3(0)1 (considering Ken, Zangief, Guile, etc’s presentation of “empty” frames in between the active frames).
Considering the recovery is 16+12, the blockstun is 20, and the last active frame is a lonely period of… 1, it’s safe to say that 16+12-20= -8. So it’s fine and dandy there. Just like the frame data says.
The lk tatsu though… It’s not.
It his twice for 2+2. And since the recovery is 12+8 (20), and the blockstun is 20, he should have -1 (because it hits on the first frame of those last 2) frame advantage. Wrong, it states -9.
HK tatsu is again… right.
2+1x5. That’s 2(0)1(0)1(0)1(0)1(0)1. The last frame is just like MK. Recovery is 13+8 (21), and the blockstun is 20. Frame advantage on block? -1. The table is right again…
And, to conclude the study, I was wrong about ken’s MK and HK tatsu. It’s also RIGHT. I forgot to consider that the last hit has a window of 2 active frames for both versions. So you have to subtract 1 frame from the advantage.
I wrote:
“MK recovery -> 14+9 (23), blockstun-> 24. Shouldn’t we have +1? Frame data shows 0.
HK recovery-> 12+12 (24), blockstun-> 24. Math says 0, frame data says -1.”
But it’s:
MK recovery -> 14+9 (23)+1, blockstun-> 24. Shouldn’t we have 0? Frame data shows 0.
HK recovery-> 12+12 (24)+1, blockstun-> 24. Math says -1, frame data says -1.
Now, to conclude all this crazyness about LK tatsus being friggin insane, I’ll explain “properly” why this way of calculating frame advantage is the “real deal” (for those that don’t understand frame data, or aren’t used to it). I’m a long time Virtua Fighter player, so I’ve been used to long frames and crap for a long time. Allow me to give you an example that doesn’t involve tatsumakis, but a simpler move: LP shoryuken by Gouki.
Gouki’s LP SRK has:
14 active frames
17+18 recovery frames
20 blockstun frames
Frame data states: -28 on block.
If you did the math the basic way (17+18-20) you’d get -15 frames. How did they get those -28? Well, they always consider the worst case scenario: hitting on the very first active frame.
It has 14 active frames, if you hit on the first frame, that’s 13 frames left. If you add those 13 to the 17+18 (or to do it much faster: to the -15 frame advantage result you got before), you’ll end up with -28.
I know, I know. This stuff is boring, and “pointless” for most of you folks.
But I care. I’m one of those guys who’s only interested in games that have depth in them. Specially mathematical depth. And I’m positive some others folks in these forums share the same taste and care as much about this as I do.
We need to understand why the LK tatsumakis have wrong frame data. Probably by using a capture card at 60fps and counting the frames after a tatsu hit (which I’m uncapable of doing =X).
Anyone care to offer some help?
I was just playing around in training and player matches this afternoon, eager to see what I could get away with with regards to Ken’s Thunder Kick OH, all in preparation for SSF4.
I propose this scenario to you…
After you have landed a few knockdowns OR used a fierce DP to end a combo, follow up with Ken’s fake OH to see how they react.
Ken can finish the fake OH and still have time to throw out a meaty cr.lk, even if they quick rise after the DP, so bear in mind that post fake OH, you CAN still control the wake-up game (basically you are in EXACTLY the same guessing game as a post ex.tatsu combo).
You notice that they are favouring the cautious approach, (most higher level players seem to favour this over reckless DP’s and random jabs/shorts, unless they have 2 ex bars to waste), either just blocking, or they are looking to OS tech.
After you end your next combo with a fierce DP, throw out a meaty Thunder Kick then immediately do a fierce DP, FADC, mp.DP or Ultra (hit confirmed). The full string would look like this for example:
Ambiguous jp.FP, cr.lk, cr.lp, fierce DP, pause, Thunder Kick, fierce DP, FADC, mp.DP/Ultra
If they don’t block high, they eat the overhead, if they then panic and do anything other than reversal or block, they eat the DP and possibly Full Ultra too.
If your opponent gets hit by every one of these attacks, minus any counterhits, it does approx 452 damage and 830 stun!!! All for just 2 ex bars.
Here’s all the possible damage outcomes:
jp.FP, cr.lk, cr.lp, fp.DP, OH, fp.DP, FADC, mp.DP
242 + 120 + 190 = 452 damage, 830 stun
jp.FP, cr.lk, cr.lp, fp.DP, OH, fp.DP, FADC, Ultra
242 + 120 + 326 = 688 damage, 730 stun
jp.FP, cr.lk, cr.lp, fp.DP, CH OH, fp.DP, FADC, mp.DP
242 + 150 + 190 = 482 damage, 868 stun
jp.FP, cr.lk, cr.lp, fp.DP, CH OH, fp.DP, FADC, Ultra
242 + 150 + 326 = 718 damage, 768 stun
jp.FP, cr.lk, cr.lp, fp.DP, OH, CH fp.DP, FADC, mp.DP
242 + 120 + 288 = 650 damage, 955 stun
jp.FP, cr.lk, cr.lp, fp.DP, OH, CH fp.DP, FADC, Ultra
242 + 120 + 563 = 925 damage, 755 stun
jp.FP, cr.lk, cr.lp, fp.DP, CH OH, CH fp.DP, FADC, mp.DP
242 + 150 + 288 = 680 damage, 993 stun
p.FP, cr.lk, cr.lp, fp.DP, CH OH, CH fp.DP, FADC, Ultra
242 + 150 + 563 = 955 damage, 793 stun
(Ultra will lose some of it’s damage due to low life)
If the thunder kick hits as a CH, you can even combo into cr.lk, cr.lp, fierce DP etc.
If it doesn’t hit as a CH then you are MORE likely to hit a CH on the fierce DP follow up (as you will be at -1 instead of +1), giving you full Ultra post FADC instead. Win win…
I thought it was worth mentioning, what are everyones thoughts?
The downsides that I can see are:
Thunder Kick meaty can be hard to time (only 2 active frames) but after a fierce DP it’s not too tricky to time.
Would obviously lose to DP mashers, but this is why you have to train them with the fake OH.
Would end up at -4 frames if they correctly block the OH, but I can’t see many people standing up to block on wake-up so they’d have to be very switched on and have tight reflexes. You could even mix in a deep step kick instead of the OH on wake-up to keep them on their toes.
I’m definitely gonna do some more testing, but I can hardly ever find a match on SF4 these days. So at the moment, I’ve only landed this massive attack a few times. But watching someone’s entire life bar disappear is priceless and it only takes two poorly timed OS techs to get you there…
Some videos of me just messing around a bit in training mode!
Ryu the boss here,
Check out my video. Similar to the quoted post, me just messing around throwing hurricane kicks over projectiles in training mode. Hope it helps!
here it is: [media=youtube]2ofBbB_zsww&feature=channel[/media]
Oh yh thats pretty cool, but i already know about that but i never use it :xeye: i dont know why i just dont. 
Plus you can do it over Ryu’s Super&Ultra! :rock:
Yeah its pretty basic. Just a useful move to consider.
hey guys, check this out!
i didn’t see anything that interesting there. What did I overlook?
Also, youtube seems to have changed from this morning and it fucking sucks now. Anyone else notice heinous load times?
you didnt no… never mind then _
Forgive me if this has been answered, but what are Ken’s U2 Combo Setups? I know of HP SRK FADC U1, but what about U2? Sorry if this was the wrong thread to ask this question. Was confused as to if I should put in the Q&A thread or here. If anyone can help out it would be greatly appreciated.
I still can’t combo his stand jab into crouch roundhouse for the life of me. That’s my only difficulty with ken in SSF4. I had more success comboing his stand jab into his U2 than his sweep.
Wait nevermind…Found out U2 isn’t comboable.
Lol Finisher, I did it the same way…
U2 can be comboed… just do some trials for inspiration…
jab > sweep only works in THEORY!
You did. Pretty cool
Im always messing around with training mode and the trails :tup:
dude… C.mk hado fadc u2.
like Majen said, just do some trials.
You can also Ex tatsu cross up to U2.
has anyone done lp.srk to shinryuuken? i pulled it off twice already, but only in corner.