Well if you do the breakdown it adds up fast I agree with 12 instead of 15 when you consider you added an additional 5 on hit.
crMK xx fireball = currently builds 40 meter on block, 70 on hit. It takes 250 for 1 bar, 1000 for a full super.
Proposed change: crMK xx fireball builds 47-48 on block (depending on rounding. 25*0.5 =12.5 so either 12 or 13 meter on block). 80meter on hit.
It means that it takes aprox 5 blocked crMK xx fireballs to build 1 bar. That’s not really that much in the grand scheme. It’s not too bad a buff but it’ll add up. The other thing to consider is that meter gain on startup is not subject to combo scaling while meter gain on hit IS.
So for exaimple. crLP - crLP - crLP - crMK - Fireball in SF4 currently the fireball would gain 22 meter on hit by itself as the fireball on hit meter gain would be scaled to 60%. However it would do 30meter on hit if it was 15 on startup 25 on hit.
I’d be OK with the changes if more changes were proposed to other characters along those lines. I’m fine with some strong stuff. However in the context of Ryu by himself I think 12/25 would be better.
I would leave Poison’s Kissed by a Goddess as it is and buff other moves, since there are already a good amount of classic zoners in the game and we don’t need yet another one. I would rather let her focus on her fireball game and give her better pressure tools and damage so she feels scary up close. Here is my batch of adjustments:
[list]
[] Far standing HK. Gains another active frame, becomes a command normal (forward + HK) to control it better and now puts airborne opponents in a limited juggle state.
[] Crouching HP. Add an additional active frame where the hitbox is above her to make AA slightly easier.
[] Crouching MK. Change it from 6 frames startup and -7 on block to 5 frames startup and -5 on block. Still worse than a shoto, but no longer such a gamble.
[] Diagonal jump HP. Add another active frame with the downward hitbox. Also, remove that hurtbox portion that doesn’t make any sense in front of her.
[] Sweep. Up damage from 90 to 120 to compensate for its utterly slow recovery.
[] Elbow drop. If it is going to be unsafe as hell on block, reduce its startup frames to 12 (it has a loud sound cue after all) and make it +4 on hit to get non 1f links combos from it.
[] LK Love me Tender. Give it overhead status. It is only useful on a range where opponents are more likely to be crouching and it would pair nicely as the safe, noncomboable overhead in contrast with Elbow drop.
[] EX Love me Tender. Give it different range for each two button combination.
[] EX Whip of Love. -2 on block on first hit
[] Aeolus Edge. +10 damage on all versions. Zoning tends to be lenghty, let’s make it slightly faster without changing frame data.
[] EX Aeolus Edge. No longer fades away. decrease pushback on hit to allow at least one loop outside the corner.
[] Love Storm. Reduce damage to 350, but make it deal unscaled damage, to allow for a consistent 350+ damage combo out of EX Whip of Love.
[*] And of course, make Poison Kiss playable for God’s Sake: change frames from 0+2 to 3+0. No longer invulnerable to hits on startup frames, but still invulnerable to throws. Range changed from 0,6 to 1,2 (or from 0,9 to 1,5 Eternals): more than a regular throw, less than a grappler command grab.
[/list]
Bruh, do you understand how ridiculous a 12F overhead that you can combo out of is? That would be faster than both Elena EX Mallet Smash and Dudley toward HK. It would literally be the best overhead in the game, especially with a fireball to back it up.
Also, the Love Storm change would 100% allow for 600+ (probably up to 800) damage combos which is straight ridiculous.
You’re taking out safety out of the picture: Dudley’s Dart Shot is -1 on block and Elena’s EX Mallet Smash is -4. At -8, Poison is the one eating a full punish if the opponent guesses right(-8 on block), so a quicker startup is only fair to compensate.
Yeah that fix to U1’s ridiculous scaling is dubious at best although 600+ damage combos are probably the realm of scenarios like Rufus in the corner at point blank range with full meters. I guess it would be easier to make Love Storm like Dudley’s U2 that only goes into cinematic when raw. That way different damage values could be set to each version and the juggle part could be assigned something far more reasonable (is 200 unscaled acceptable?).
Poison’s F+MP is also 10F active airborne on 7F and goes high off the ground. She is only -8F at WORST, most of the time she is probably ~-5F since it’s actually pretty hard to have it blocked on the first frame. You make it +2F on hit, now it’s possible to be as much as +11F on hit making it link directly to ultra. Again, unless you are making EVERYONE have a better overhead that is too much.
12F is too much period for a hopkick overhead that can be linked out of, regardless of safety issue on block since no one would be able to consistently block it, even if it was ALWAYS -8F
i think you are going way overboard with the poison buffs. I think priority 1 should be her mk dp to have 13 active frames like an average dp, instead of the 4 it currently has that also has 4 frames of recovery in between the two sets of 2 active frames.
anything else is gravy. couple more active frames all around would be nice, little less recovery too. 5 frame cr.mk, and 4 frame st.mk/cl.mk would be great too OR give her jabs +6 advantage on hit so her st.mk/cl.mk/cl.hp become 2 frame links and 1 frame links into cr.mk/mp/hp
sweep getting buffed damage wouldn’t matter IMO, the horrible start up and -15 on block disadvantage and recovery make it way too risky to use. either special cancelability like in the arcade build or better start up/active frames/recovery
and in regards to the overhead, since point blank to around 2 blocked jabs pushback range, on some characters who have taller crouching hurtboxes, you still only get +2 advantage, adding a frame or 2 more hitstun would probably be better then drastically changes it like that i think.
and you shouldn’t be comboing ultra 1 off an ex rekka if it doesn’t kill, because the scaling from rekkas destroy any extended combos, you are better off air canceling and doing a mix up, or landing HP rekkas after for the knockdown, Ultra 1 is better landed off a DP fadc, as an anti air, as a punish, focus crumple, or overhead (overhead, cr.lp xx dp fadc u1) if they were to buff ultra 1 id say just give it projectile armor of atleast 1 layer so it doesn’t get wiped out by even something like dans fireball. OR allow poison to do ultra with a fireball still present on screen, this would allow her to AA with it far better which would be nice.
ultra 2 definitely needs a range increase tho, she moves BACK on activation, the fuck?
Ok I’ll admit here I don’t get at 100 % the minutiae of frame data (where I can learn that? Other than the definitions of startup, active and recovery, doesn’t seem to be on the wiki) and didn’t realize that the on hit / on block numbers were worst case scenarios. So my intentions, even if numbers are iffy, are: making F+MP relatively consistent to link out BnBs of it without needing to hit 1F links and make it fast enough to catch opponents with about 40 % of success. Which frame data would be fine for Elbow Drop to work that way?
Which is the agreed frame threshold where players can react and block, but can’t respond with motion specials? My issue is that at 14+ frame startup (the lowest on SF4) players with their mind set on mashing a DP or an Ultra can see the coast is clear and proceed, so I want overheads with less startup to truly limit opponents to choose between holding back or downback, without time to perform other motions.
the overhead should be used as one tool in your bag of mix ups, where when you pull it out you catch the opponent off guard. lets say you go for a jump in attack that is blocked, the most common reaction for a defender that blocks a high attack, is to then block a low attack, or some try to do both defend a low and throw by crouch blocking and slightly delaying a crouch tech input. one instance you could do is overhead right after the blocked jump in, if your opponent is lulled into their muscle memory of going straight to crouch block after the blocked high, you will land the overhead. Another option could be after a block string of jabs that push you out just enough where you can take a step back and try whiff punishing a crouch tech or bad normal with cr.mk, or catch them say walking, and then mixing that same sequence up with the overhead instead of the cr.mk to catch one of their lows or crouch block, which will then enhance the effectiveness of that cr.mk because they might block high expecting an overhead. Its a tool i think best used in long sets where you can gauge your opponents reactions much better then say trying to use it too much in a best 2/3
In regards to reactionary stuff? In my research, which I admit wasn’t SUPER in depth, it turns out SF tends to have some of the faster overheads in FGs actually already. When I compared most of the overheads in SF4 to a game often known for it’s high lows, Guilty Gear, SF4 was clearly faster. In regards to reaction times, it varies. A twitch reaction (Where you aren’t actually reacting to a situation and making a decision but instead reacting to ANYTHING occurring and simply hitting a button) is usually ~0.15-0.3s area. Reacting and recognizing an actual situation and making a decision to do something like stand block instead of crouch blocking is usually at LEAST double that (0.3-0.6 minimum). In terms of gameplay most people struggle to do more than a twitch reaction to anything faster than 16-18F (Not impossible just extremely difficult). Twitch reaction would be ~9-10F at the FASTEST.
Usually what occurs is a recognization of patterns and expectations. You think the opponent is going to do something before they do it, and you actually “react” before it happens.
Millia’s Instant Air Badmoon overhead is, IIRC, the fastest overhead in Guilty Gear at 16F (if not the fastest it’s within 1F I don’t think there was anything faster than 15F.)
Another thing about Poison’s overhead is that it only has 10F of recovery with 12F of hitstop on block, so unless you are explicitly expecting her to overhead and not just stand blocking to cover that base, you most likely aren’t going to be punishing it very reliably. This is coupled with her having a projectile that is extremely plus on block, which aids in the high/low mixup; also, like Eternal mentioned she is usually no worse than -6F on block
(around-4F if used after knockdown).
All things considered, I think her having a 16F overhead (still faster than almost everybody in the game) is fine as it is. Especially when you realize Dudley relies on his high/low mixup game to be a competitive character (he also doesn’t benefit from Poison’s much better hurtbox during startup), and Elena has to use meter for her overhead to be any good (while still being punishable).
Funnily enough @Eternal I average about 17~19F against blocking her IA Badmoon, but ~21F against her 6K overhead.
Well, her OH at 16F ALSO assumes hitting on first frame. To be -6F she is hitting on 18F
Also the other nice thing is the HB on her OH is actually pretty good, I remember some people discussing using it as a makeshift anti air in some cases. It’s not C. Viper “Derp” good but it’s solid.
I wonder if they ever plan to unnerf Ryu’s cr.MK hurtbox and I don’t know maybe make some changes to Akuma’s since he needs a good low attack that isn’t going to get him ass raped
Akuma has a great cr.mk, it low profiles really well, has a great hit box in comparison to the hurt box. 5 frame start up and 3 active frames with a total of 20 frames is quite good. It just doesn’t reach as far as Ken and the ryus, but everything else is great
The bad thing about Akuma is his attack frames are far less active compared to the other shotos which in turn gives him a very bad ground game outside of low roundhouse.
but also when compared to other shotos I feel he still gets stuff that other shotos don’t:
unscaled U1 that can be used as AA when paired with crMK
best walkspeed which makes his movement all around better
a teleport. Ok maybe not the best tool but it’s still useful nonetheless
cancelable far HP
clMK with a very good hitbox
still able to control space very well with air fireball / fireball / red fireball
able quickly shift his style of playing
They may not seem that powerful by themselves but I always felt akuma was the most technical out of all of them. So you have to use your tools in a smart way.
But I think some changes I would like to see for Akuma would be:
Characters can no longer low profile the 2nd hit of far st.HK by simply crouching
Go hadoken damage increased 60->70
LP Shakunestsu damage increased 50->60
Zanku Hadouken damage increased 40->55
make his super his ultra and give him a brand new super pls -_-
Don’t leave out these: He also has the highest damage + stun EX FIreball of all shotos (120dmg 200stun while everyone else is 100dmg 100stun), the most invincible SRK, and is one of only 2 characters who can actually cancel into their ultra with the other being Oni.
