I don’t think they made her cr.HP and DP so iffy on purpose, they feel more “Beta” than anything, a lot of Poison’s moves feel pretty unfinished. Not bad per se, just kinda’ unreliable.
I’m fine with her cr.HP, but if I had to make a changelist for Poison:
Fix/Change DP Hitbox
Reduce Startup and Recovery on sweep. The move was near enough forgotten after the Loketest nerf.
Increase EX LMT Horizontal range (I’d even take a damage nerf)
Reduce scaling on EX WoL (As someone said.)
I think that’s about it. I don’t think those changes would be enough to make people complain about her, I know the Poison bandwagon is going strong, but the only thing I think is “Too Strong” about her is EX LMT damage, especially from a s.HP.
Poison data
LP 15F startup 30F recovery 44F total -3F on block 0F on hit
MP 17F startup 27F recovery 43F total (active 40F) 0F on block +3F on hit
HP 23F startup 20F recovery 42F total (active 40F) +6F on block +10F on hit
EX 9F startup 29F recovery 37F total (active 40F) +2F on block +4F on hit
It’s not TOO good, HP just has a lot of active frames and she has the ability to alter the recovery dramatically between each version. LP and MP fall sort of slightly above average. EX is a little crazy though given how fast a startup it has. AFAIK it’s the only fireball able to be looped directly into itself without a go between unless the opponent is in a juggle state like with Ryu’s EX Fireball.
Poison’s HP fireball is pretty similar to HP Cody’s Badstone, But Badstone’s also got way way less active frames and 6F less hit/blockstun and 20less damage (but 100more stun) and Cody can’t really vary the speed of his badstones or combo into them, they all fly too fast to use to really use as a cover in neutral and startup too slow to combo into except EX. Of course, Cody isn’t a zoner :P, anyways my point is that Poison’s HP FB isn’t really that comparable to Guile’s because of the startup. Her HP is 23F while Guile’s are all 10F (Except EX which is 11F). I’d say Rose (due to the variations in startup vs recovery) or Gouken (17F startup, 24F recovery) is a better comparison. Her HP Fireball is the only one with crazy good recovery though they are all quite fast.
Cody data
(active 8F after you let go of button, minimum 29F startup)
29F startup 16F recovery 44F total (active 16F) +4F on block +8F on hit
29F startup 18F recovery 46F total (active 20F) +2F on block +6F on hit
29F startup 20F recovery 48F total (active 27F) +0F on block. +4F on hit
24F startup 16F recovery 40F total (active 24F) +8F on block +15F on hit
Guile’s frame data
10F startup 20F recovery (30F total) +4F on block +10F on hit
10F startup 22F recovery (32F total) +2F on block +8F on hit
10F startup 24F recovery (34F total) +0F on block +6F on hit
11F startup 28F recovery (39F total) +1F on block +4F on hit
Gouken data
17F startup (active 8F after you let go of button, minimum 17F) 24F recovery +2F on block +6F on hit
Rose data
14F startup 38F recovery -12F on block -8F on hit
20F startup 32F recovery -4F on block 0F on hit
27F startup 26F recovery +2F on block +6F on hit
14F startup 34F recovery 0F on block +4F on hit
Poison’s HP fireball is just different in the sense that you have to react during the startup, because reacting during recovery causes your punish to come out too slowly.
i think they should just make EX LMT travel depending on the button combo you press, so EX LMT can have the LK lmt distance, the current distance, and the hk distance all in EX versions.
yea less scaling or more damage on ex/rekkas in general, when your bnb has 2-3 lights in it, and then your special move ender has 3-4 individually scaled hits, damage gets shitted on. I don’t ever link U1 after ex rekka if it doesn’t kill.
Cr.HP has quite a good hitbox actually, it just doesn’t last long, 3 active frames and each individual frame has the hitbox positioned in a different effective spot, adding 2-3 more active frames would help much better.
hitbox on dp is quite good as well, again just lack of active frames, and for some odd reason, gaps in between active frames.
for people who don’t know, poison’s dp’s work like this:
[list]
LK DP [110 damage (80,30), 150 stun (100,50)]
[*] starts up in 5 frames (5 frames invincible), is active for 2 frames, then has mid move recovery for 3 frames which she is grounded and vulnerable, then she has 1 more active frame, and then she goes into full recovery while airborne. [2,(3),1]
MK DP [130 damage (90,40), 150 stun (100,50)]
[*] starts up in 4 frames (5 frames invincible), is active for 2 frames, then has a mid move recovery for 4 frames which she is grounded and vulnerable, then she has 2 more active frames, and then she goes into full recovery while airborne. [2,(4),2]
HK DP [140 damage (80,30,30), 200 stun (100,50,50)]
[*] starts up in 10 frames (0 invincibility), active for 3 frames, then 6 frames of mid move recovery which she is grounded, then 3 more active frames which she also becomes airborn for, then 3 more mid move recovery frames, then 3 final active frames before going into full recovery.[3,(6),3,(3),3]
EX DP [170 damage (90,30,30,20), 230 stun (100,50,50,30)]
[*] starts up in 4 frames (12 frames invincible), active for 5 frames, then 1 frame of mid move recovery (still invincible), then 3 more active frames, then 1 frame of recovery which she is airborne and vulnerable (invincibility now stops), then the last 3 active frames before going into full recovery.[3,2,(1),3,(1),3]
[/list]
So, Lk dp grounded active frames work well for inducing a trade which you can option select with ultra 1, or another move like rekkas, to get a free juggle state from the trade. similar to how ryu and sagat trade dp into ultra. Aside from that their is no use to the move because MK is better in every other aspect.
MK dp has the most invincibility so its best used as a grounded reversal and Anti Air, but again, because the move has such little active frames, and grounded recovery while the move is still in its active state, it suffers from inconsistencies as a reversal/AA. For example, Grapplers can command throw her during those 4 frames of mid move recovery, which will work everytime with an EX (invincible) command throw, as their invincibility gets them through the 2 active frames, to snatch her in her grounded recovery frames. Jump ins can catch her in those recovery frames to land a full grounded combo as she doesn’t get an air reset. Jump in’s can even pass right through her body and land on the other side unaffected by the DP. You can flat out just neutral jump it point blank and watch it whiff.
HK DP can work well as a grounded reversal or AA at times, even though it doesn’t have any invincibilty, the hitboxes sort of protect her hurtbox well, and her hurtbox gets extremely low, and because it has multiple active frames, it doesn’t suffer from some of the problems like the previous two, but still has the strict timing for AA because it starts up in 10 frames. As a grounded reversal because the hurtbox gets quite small and low, point blank normals can whiff it and the DP then catches the opponent in their recovery, but because of the lack of invincibility, a throw will beat it every time, and mistiming and having this blocked sets you up for a focus attack into w.e the opponent wants.
EX DP doesn’t suffer from any problems. It starts up quite fast in 4 frames, and is invincible for a good amount of time and for almost all of its active frames. The damage and stun are boosted quite nicely as well. It is worth the 1 bar to get the true version of the move. Using this move feels exactly how the move was designed.
the solution? and for capcom it shouldn’t be quite difficult, copy and paste her EX dp as her MK dp, and just make the slight adjustments, Drop the invincibility back down to 5 frames, and adjust the damage and stun back down accordingly. If they want, they can do the same with LK dp and make the adjustments accordingly, and just give HK DP throw invincibility if they would like, but all we really need is the MK DP change.
hugo is the only one she destroys like that, with or without an improved DP.
as long as geif can press forward and push poison backwards towards the corner (poison has a slow walkspeed, and her escape options like backdash and teleport only take her closer to the corner, and no way of escaping the corner with wall jump, tatsu or something like that), and stay in effective J.hp range to make throwing fireballs harder for poison, and when he gets a bar, he can react quite easily to the start up animation of any normal fireball ( They are not subtle AT ALL, especially the HP fireball which is the primary one she’s going to want to throw as a shield) the tide turns quickly into geifs favor. It’s def 6-4 poison, but an improved mk dp won’t change that. Poison doesn’t have a chun like st.mp/st.hk/sweep or sagat st.hk to stop geif from walking her down.
T.hawk’s well placed dives can get around the fireballs, and once he gets a bar (quite easy while shooting his gun), his ex dive is free on any of poisons fireballs or anti airs, and his ex spire goes right through the fireballs and gets him right in her face. Poison can deal with the jump ins alot better with air to air j.mp/j.hk although, and hawk doesn’t have the pokes like gief’s jab, st.mp, st.mk.
Change his far st.HK to his cs.HK (works close and far) and start up change to 7f (for balance they could drop the damage to 90). If the hurtbox is moved back a little he could also AA with it but that might be a bit much
ive been saying that for the longest time, I thought it was an obvious thing to do after they did it for dan.
if they mad it comboable with 7 frame start up, i feel as if they would nerf the amount of hitstun/blockstun that it does. currently does 15 frames of blockstun and 19 of hitstun, And with the added range it would have being the close and far hk, doing shit like far.st.jab> st.hk xx hado fadc u1 would work for full animation because of the fireball hitting meaty due to reeling animations. And i don’t think thats the direction capcom wants ken to go as much as i would love it.
There is already some great Akuma suggestions in this thread, so I’ll just my add own wishes that slightly differ:
Change nj.mp to his j.mp animation
j.hk to come out 1f faster (currently 7f)
Make fs.lk active for 3f rather than 2f to assist in the problematic Yun matchup specifically
Extend fs.hp hitbox downward slightly and bump to 100 damage (from 90)
c.mp active for 4f (currently 3f; might be a bit cheeky though)
c.hk bumped to 150 stun rather than 100
fs.mk startup reduced to 8f (from 9f)
Regular fireballs do 70 damage ala Ryu and Ken
HP redball changed to do 150 damage, 200 stun (to coax the return of FADC combos and up his damage and stun output a little)
MP DP launches on the first hit ala Ken’s
Ultra combo double U1 meter doled out to opponents halved or perhaps a third trimmed off
Versus theme music fixed ('sup Volcanic)
I also feel Akuma could legitimately use a bump from 850 to 900 health due to how much his oki game has taken a hit. I’m happy for his stun to remain the same, though in his current state his health is difficult to justify. This is something that would perhaps cancel out some of the aforementioned changes suggested in exchange however, as giving him a health bump PLUS the changes mentioned would be unfair. A health bump would give him a little more padding to assist in his requirement to operate at close quarters more in Ultra though.
This might be contentious, though I’d like to see his c.hp do 100 damage flat. Not the 70/100 damage it currently has attached to it. For example, point blank, his c.hp does 100 damage. If it hits later (i.e. typically as an AA) it does 70 damage. This however is likely by design to tame its overall effectiveness as an AA and is perhaps in place for sound reasons.
Generally these changes are to lure Akuma players into attacking up close more and doing a little more damage and stun overall. He strikes me as difficult to ‘buff’ from his current incarnation though. One step too far and he could become a dick, but I do feel that he needs a little extra sauce for opponents to regard him appropriately and to reward players willing to get up close and personal. I feel Ultra Akuma has become a little more stand-offish and unstable and needs some tuning to negate this.
Apologies in advance for suggesting Akuma buffs too.
I think Akuma’s fireball doing 60 is fine when you consider his EX does 6060 and 200stun while Ryu and Ken both do only 100 damage (5050) and 100stun on thier EXs. I think it’s pretty well balanced by having his EX be so significantly higher damage and stun than Ryu and Ken.
For his Red fireball I think that a 50% damage boost is a bit much. I think personally if they upped the damage it should be to 120 AND stun (40x3) damage and reduce the meter gain from 10/161616 to 10/101010 to compensate.
the crHP damage value difference is VERY common, I personally think it should be done away with entirely. However it’s not strictly an Akuma issue. Sakura, Guile, Ryu, Fei and several others have damage drop offs on anti airs during later frames. I think it’s dumb
I would really like is Boxer’s cr.lk>cr.lp to be a 2 frame link. It’s a necessary combo if you like to use crouch tech. Currently the combo is a 1 frame link and it can’t be plinked as far as I know. I don’t think it’s too unreasonable, I mean they finally made Guile’s cr.1p>cr.mp 2 frames so why not?
We have a lot of time for the next balance update anyway, since they said it’s next year. Wouldn’t surprised me to have it drop 1 month before EVO again.
People need to start doing that and stop complaining about their crLKs. Gouken and Ibuki both got 3F crLPs in USF4 which are huge buffs to their crouch techs. Tons of characters have better crLPs for teching than crLKs. Every shoto’s crLP is a 3Fer that they can combo out of.
I don’t know if this is too much but Poison’s ex rekka to ultra needs to pop everyone up a little higher so she can combo into it a little more consistently.
With the new patch coming out and seeing the pushback reductions I wonder if they same could be done to Akumas Dp? Instead of pop up on one of the hits, reduce the pushback. That way multiple hits are more consistent, along with rfc being worth trying to use, instead of wasting three bars because the opponent got pushed out of focus range due to some weird hurtboxes.
Fix Guile’s turning animation so that flash kick auto-corrects like every other reversal in the game… basically the same thing we’ve been requesting since vanilla. =)
