We all knew it was coming sooner or later.
Post your thoughts/suggestions on what you feel should be changed in the upcoming USF4 balance patch.
SF5
What’s official about this thread?
Me making it obviously.
Also, it’s the first and putting “official” in the title helps prevent others from making similar threads that will clutter up the forum.
USF4 balance update is confirmed?
Balance update wasn’t entirely confirmed, but an update IS in the works currently which will include trials, fixes, ES online with an indicator of what version you picked etc.
It was heavily hinted at however when at EVO they mentioned they were aware of peoples complaints about their characters getting slaughtered, most notably Seth was mentioned. This is not to mention Ayano’s statements about how he would like to continue to work on USF4 after release, and the fact that they said they were going back to fix some unintended changes that occured with the latest bug fix patch.
I’m 90% sure that there will be one final update for this game to keep players interested for another year or two while the development of SF5 begins, which was also just recently teased with the announcement of Capcom again working with Dimps on a new fighting game.
If they do decide on re balancing then this is a list of changes I would submit to capcom
System/bug fixes
Fix her wonky hurt box issues both against her ( like the stand to crouch, crouch to stand, and her pushbox) and for her (cr.hp and cl.hp causing reeling animations where canceled moves whiff. Cl.mp getting a hit box adjustment to not whiff on hit/block standing / crouching etc)
Fix her states that restrict her from special/ultra canceling with an up direction
Fix her ultra 2 causing her to move backwards giving it inconsistent range
Buffs
Increased active frames on her Kissed by a goddess special. This move is her anti air and the go to medium kick version which is the one with the most invincibility and fastest start up (barring ex) has only 4 active frames. There is also a 3 frame gap of recovery between the first 2 active frames and the last 2. Because she also becomes airborne on frame 11 after the last active frame, allowing her to be unthrowable, the 3 frames of recovery in between the 2 sets of active frames are throwable, causing her reversal to be punishable while active in a sense. A buff to to both the horizontal and vertical hit boxes would also help the range so that the move isn’t easily neutral jumped and forward jumped through her body.
Slight increase in walk speed both forward and backwards.
Far. St.lk special cancelable.
+1 frame of hit stun added to crouching light punch, close standing light punch and far standing light punch, giving her a total of +6 frame advantage on hit allowing new combo potential, giving her the possibility of combing into her crouching medium normals and her crouching hard punch as well as close hard kick. It will also create her crouching light punch > standing medium kick link to be more lenient. She would also be able to link her sweep on a counter hit light punch.
Slight range increase on all versions whip of love to avoid whiffing when canceled from far ranging normals like Standing medium kick, crouching medium kick, crouching medium punch, crouching hard punch. Etc
Damage increase on all versions of whip of love. The scaling added to each hit of this move causes her overall damage out put to suffer if extending combos.
Increased range on forward throw. Her forward throw grants her many set up options, but the range is one of the worst, a slight increase in range would be very impact full for her overall close range game.
Improve the sweep. Poisons sweep is one of if not the worst sweep in the game. It has a very slow start up (9 frames), very little active frames (2 active frames), and horrible recovery (31 frames). The stun and damage is very little (90 damage/ 100 stun) and with such a large recovery time, she is -15 on block. There is a lot of risk both on start up and block/whiff for such little reward on hit. I would suggest the start up to be 7 or 8 frames, 3 or 4 active frames, and about 21 recovery frames, with a frame disadvantages of -7 on block. Buff the damage to 100 and stun to 150 or 200. Or leave it and revert the special cancelablity
Increase in speed on Ultra 1’s Projectile to allow it to connect midscreen on every character after an EX Whip of Love
Give her ultra 1’s fireball 1 layer of projectile armor. This is me being greedy but it sucks having an ultra fireball losing to a normal projectile.
More range on ultra 2
If all the system fixes were to happen, and even just 1 or 2 buffs from this reasonable list while not nerfing anything in “compensation”, I think she becomes a complete char.
Just gimme my 1k health back. I got literally everything else I asked for before (and a few things I didn’t).
I wanted to make a thread sf4 PC Rebalance cause i felt there alot things they could have done better. Also me and my friends want a game we could enjoy more. Is it ok to make another thread? i need all the help and feedback i could get.
- Fix Elena’s hitbox
- Fix all the inconsistencies with new characters (Wonky hit/hurtboxes etc)
- “Fix” Poisons sweep. It was nerfed incredibly hard post loketests with no compensation
- Buff the weaker cast members a little
- Fuck Yun
- Actually remove unblockables
People should post and agree on universal changes first and characters adjustments later, or otherwise we are going to have another “Thanks for your feedback. Oh, and we added this Delayed wakeup mechanic too, check it out”.
Universal changes
-The reversal frame window is reduced from 5 frames to 2 frames. Yes, pros would still be able to DP on wakeup or landing without any difference: the real objective is to allow players to do frame traps and pressure much more safely: no longer can player mash Dps or ultra and get them consistently without having an idea of what they are blocking.
-Autoblock is disabled. If someone tries to buffer 323 and the opponent was exerting a true blockstring, they deserve to get hit.
-Crouch tech is gone. Players must be pressing back rather than downback if they pretend to tech a throw.
-I would dig adding one startup frame to throws while also reducing the throw tech window from 12 to 10 frames. Less normals stuffed by throws while at the same time the defender needs to pay more attention to throw attempts.
General character changes, like the -5 frame FADC DP
-Make more overheads comboable on hit; also, have a minority (approx: 20 %) of overheads’ startup reduced to 12 frames. Some characters should be terrifying to crouching opponents. Yes, I know Eternal posted a big post against this one, hence the change from “every” to “a minority”.
-Give all air throws juggle potential.
Open question: what to do about DWU? I think that since there is already a DWU flag, it would make sense to distinguish between “delayable knockdown” and undelayable (and untechable obviously) knockdowns. My direction with it would be:
Make all sweeps delayable, since they are relatively easy to abuse.
Make all throws undelayable, as they can’t be abused (grapplers may with command throws but hey, that’s the point of a grappler).
I’d trade that 1k health for inbincibility (did I write this correctly? ) on U2 again
I would be fine with her W Ultra to be 60% again if I can have U2 invincibility again.
Also… EX Oroshi throw invincibility would be neat, but maybe that’s pushing it.
Reposted from the general thread.
I personally think what Sim needs is a strong way to deal with focus attacks and a true blockstring. So he should either get the startup changed on EX flame to 5 frames, or his d.hp should hit twice and startup changed to 11 or 12 frames. I feel he shouldn’t have both because that would make him too strong. Either one would be a really strong detterent to focus fishing. This would really help out in his most problematic MU’s which are Makoto, Abel, and Hakan. If the former is used, EXflame should be changed to be 0f on guard instead of +2 and d.hp recovery should be lowered to 17f from 21f. If the latter is chosen, then EXflames startup should be changed to 9f or whatever lowest number that will give him a true blockstring from a canceled normal.
I’d also like to see startup changes on a lot of his moves.
St.lk startup changed from 7f to 6f
St.mk startup changed from 9f to 8f
St.hk startup changed from 13f to 11f
D.lp start changed from 9f to 8f
D.mp startup changed from 12f to 10f
D.hp startup changed from 14f to 12f
Lk slide cancellable active frames changed from 2f to 4f
Mk slide startup changed from 6f to 5f
Hk slide startup changed from 10f to 8f
Yoga drill changed to 7f startup from 12f
Yoga Mummy changed to 8f startup from 13f
Special moves:
Lp.flame startup changed from 15f to 14f; recovery changed from 22f to 20f. Lp.flame can now combo from a light on a CH and it should be -4f on block.
Mp.flame startup changed from 17f to 15f; recovery changed from 16f to 17f. Mp.flame now combos from medium attacks raising Sim’s combo damage by 30 and its -2 on guard from -1.
Hp.flame recovery changed from 13f to 11f making it +4 on guard instead of +2
EX.flame changed to either 5f startup or 8/9/10f startup.
Lp.blast startup changed from 11f to 7f
Mk.blast startup changed from 14f to 10f
EX.blast startup changed from 5f to 4f; loses the hard KD and instead pops the opponent into the air like lariat or DP’s. With all of the other changes I think he would be too strong with a hard KD on EX.blast.
I only want a few damage increases on his normals:
B.hp damage distribution changed from 6050 to 5060; causes a soft knockdown hittable state on airbourne opponents; recovery changed from 17f to 12f. Seems like a weird change, but b.hp is his best button at hitting low angled divekicks. With the lowered recovery and on airbourne hit property, he can punish divekicks much better. This will really help out against the twins and Rufus and not impact other MU’S much at all because b.hp straight loses to regualr jumpins.
B.lp (the overhead chop) damage changed from 50 to 40; recovery changed from 11f to 9f; special/super cancelable. It would be able to naturally combo into lp.flame, or ex.flame for a true blockstring and super.
St.lp damage changed from 30 to 35/40
St.mp damage changed from 60 to 65
B.lk damage changed fro 30 to 35/40
St.mk damage changed from 60 to 65
St.hk damage changed from 90 to 100
Db.hp damage changed from 85 to 95
Tl;dr: things that will never happen :(.
I’m getting flash sweats from memories of AE Makoto.
Edit: My bad about the double post. I thought I was in edit.
Now for Dudley changes.
-Sweep Launcher. More pushback on block.
-Stomach blow. Push Dudley forward so he ends closer to the opponent on hit.
The following are merely intended to supress some annoying 1 frame links.
-Crouching LP. +4 on hit.
-Dart shot. +4 on hit.
-Crouching HP. +4 on hit.
Machine Gun Blow, Duck and Jet Upper are regularly used so they need no or little fixes. The other specials are the ones that need significant buffs to stop being embarassing to use:
Short swing blow
-Make the first frames where Dudley moves back both throw and hit invincible. Those aren’t active frames, so this isn’t an attempt to DPfy the move: the main goal with this change is to make Short Swing Blow an answer to both DPs and throws, so opponents would need to think harder on wakeup.
-LP version. +2 on hit, -1 on block.
-MP version. +3 on hit, -2 on block.
-Hp version. Armored. +3 on hit, -4 on block.
Cross Counter
-All versions break armor and become hard knockdowns.
-LP. Turn it into a feint that can be cancelled like a taunt.
-MP. No changes.
-HP. Active zone changes from the upper body to the lower body, so at last we can punish low pokes with it.
-EX. Make distinctions between them so one of them is active against highs and other against lows.
Thunderbolt. A contender for the most useless special in the game, I would suggest to change its input to 623 K but a move with 38 startup frames and 41 grounded recovery frames is impossible to make playable. However, the asset is already there so why ignoring it? Turn it into a divekick without height restriction and with about only 10 grounded recovery frames (can a modder here make it real on a video? It should look awesome) and it would help tremendously to dispel the curse of “every character with a long low poke is Dudley’s hard counter”. The move naturally crossups and knocks down, so it wouldn’t even be abusable.
Cody changes are long mainly because of trying to make knife useful, also because I include a bunch of nerfs. Takes those out it’s not that big. ATM he kind of is average to below average in every catagory. Frame traps he is above the average vs most characters but below the average for a frame trap + mixup oriented character (Sakura/Cammy/Dudley/Rufus/Yun/Abel/Makoto/Rose/Dan are all more effective at frame trapping thanks to tools to beat both crouch + stand tech or having a high low game).
Also included nerfs to a ton of stuff to offset some of the bigger changes. Overall better but less damage in many categories.
Walk speed backwards increased to 0.0285
F+HK made able to hit crouching opponents + airborne a couple of frames earlier or at least unthrowable before it becomes airborne. Reduce damage by 25 and stun by 50
crMK moves slightly farther. Hurtbox height slightly lowered to make it possible to slip under fireballs like Sakura’s with very specific timing.
closeLK hits low
closeMK made a command normal that is still special cancelable and can be performed at all ranges. Damage reduced to 70
Badstone all versions startup reduced. 25F for LP, 23F for MP, 22F for HP. Allows combo to LP/MP badstone only on sHP Counterhit, while HP badstone can combo without a counterhit. Alternately, reduce all of them to 25F but increase the damage to 70. MP recovery and hit/blockstun increased by 1F, same frame advantage if hit/block. but now has longer recovery on whiff. HP recovery and hit/blockstun increased by 2F, same frame advantage if hit/block but now has longer recovery on whiff. Frame counts would be 41F for LP/42F for MP/43F for HP/40F for EX Similar to Dan who is 40/41/42/40.
Fake badstone reduced to 25F (currently 32F)
EX Ruffian Projectile invincible on 7F instead of 11F. Active frames increased by 2F. Damage reduced from 130 to 120
MK Ruffian active frames increased from 4F to 6F no change to total frame count.
HK Ruffian Kick opponent falls slightly slower (same speed they’d fall from an SRK). Causes a free juggle on counterhit now. Damage reduced from 100 to 70.
HK Ruffian hurtbox reduced on leg + head. Startup reduced from 7F to 5F.
Zonk moves farther and can be comboed out of on hit. Damage reduced by 30 on all versions.
Ultra 2 now gets all but the cinematic portion on air hit.
Knife changes:
Knife pickup can cancel to any knife normal, not just chained lights. Cancel occurs slightly earlier. Allow closeHP - knife pickup - crHP with knife to combo similar to a Fierce Feint Fierce from Viper.
F+HP can be canceled into knife pickup on hit/block.
Can use all command normals while holding the knife (F+MP/B+MP/F+HP/F+HK/F+MK)
Knife chip increased to 20-25% instead of 8-12%.
crHP, sMP (1st hit), crMP with knife special cancelable.
sLP with knife 1F faster recovery.
sMP with knife damage reduced from 4040 to 4030.
crMP with knife damage reduced from 80 to 70
crHP with knife damage reduced from 120 to 100
sHP with knife causes a knockdown on hit. Recovery increased by 3F (now -5F on block 0F on hit). Juggle potential reduced from 3 to 0.
Knife throw reduced to 17F startup so Cody can combo into it from counterhit mids and crouching HP as it’s a 1shot deal. Damage increased from 70 to 90.
EX Knife Throw added. Same startup/recovery as regular knife throw. Damage is 110/150stun. Ignores projectiles and can’t be hit away by strikes. Causes a free juggle.
Fake Knife throw reduced from 31F to 25F
Buffs Cody’s frame traps and mid range footsies. Knife becomes actually useful. Wake up untouched. Still lacks true block string from lows except for EX Criminal Upper (closeLK can’t be chained out of). Gives up damage in a number of areas in exchange for better tools.
I was going to post cody suggestions… but then i realized eternal might beat me to it.
And he did…
With a biblical wall of cody buffs that i completely agree with.
Kudos to you.
That entire concept is awful. Sorry but that is how I feel. Last thing we need to be giving Dudley is a zero height required dive kick. ATM It does serve a purpose, albeit a very very specific / situational one. It’s Dudleys best chip tool. It goes at an angle most opponents don’t have an answer to and it does 40-60 chip damage depending on version. I’d prefer: Strike invincible on rising portion. Now does 40% chip damage on all versions. Slightly faster start up, hits overhead. Makes it an anti-charge character move as you can’t crouch block it and it hits crossup. Also makes it a round ending move. Also speeding it up slightly makes it better as a very situational mixup.
Also the concept of “Every character with a long low poke is Dudley’s hard counter” was only remotely true in AE2012. USF4 Dudley shits on or goes even with A LOT of characters with very good low pokes. Even in AE2012 it was more “characters with a good long reaching low poke that dudley can’t hit with crMP tend to be tough for Dudley” never “hard counter.” Dudley got his F+HP/sHP adjusted to make it hit crouching low profiles better, and his crMK is now 7F, same as or faster than a lot of characters sweeps. Dudley does great vs a bunch of characters with long reach lows now that his offense is so much better that it outweighs this weak area.
Most of the characters Dudley loses to are 6-4 at worst. (Zangief is bordering 7-3 but that is only if you are using my view which is that there are alot more 7-3s in the game than people admit. If you asked general public it’d be 6-4.)
Now lets look at who those characters are:
Evil Ryu (ok this one is because of ERyu’s crMK but also because ERyu can keep up with Dudley’s damage)
Chun Li (poke reach more than anything, even then she has to be very careful because it’s easy to lose that advantage if Dudley gets in.)
Zangief (Grapplers tend to beat frame trap characters, as it should be. Dudley wants to be up close for most of his game but he doesn’t want to get close to Zangief because of SPD. Means he has to play footsies and Zangief’s fast sMP/sLK are good whiff punishes vs Dudley’s mids and HP/HK)
Ibuki/Viper because of his wider hurtbox and lack of a fast low profile (only low profile he has is crHK which takes a long time to actually low profile so it’s not viable on demand)
THawk (Not as bad as Gief, MAYBE 6-4. Mostly just grappler syndrome again)
Yun (Debatable. either 5.5-4.5 or 5-5. Mainly because Yun gets extended combos on Dudley. Otherwise Dudley would win hands down.)
Balrog (Mainly comes down to farHK and crHK from Balrog out ranging a bunch of Dudley’s stuff. I think it’s 5-5 though, we just haven’t seen it in action enough.)
Bison (Probably 5-5 now. Was bad in AE2012 though. Mainly again due to Bison’s fast pokes out reaching Dudley’s fast pokes forcing Dudley to do slower to recover stuff like sHP.)
Everyone else is close to even for SURE or possibly advantage Dudley now. This includes characters with great low pokes like Cody, Ryu, Fei, and Sakura.
I don’t think you know Dudley as well as you think you do now. Sounds like you haven’t done a lot to experiment with him since USF4 and are relying on AE2012 knowledge.
Well since no answered, i guess its ok to make the thread. I be taking feedback from this thread and http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/193018/ultra-sf4-pc-mod-balance-thread?new=1. @Eternal would u mind helping me any help will be greatly appreciated that includes anyone as well.