I definitely found it entertaining to read. It’s not really derailing the thread, since there’s not much else to talk about until we receive more factual information.
I play quite a fair amount of Gief on my school’s CE machine. I definitely agree that if they want this to be successful having him overpowered would impair them a lot. Remember this, they need to hit a lot of casual players, aside from them thinking fireball spamming and such is cheap, they hate something they see no way to beat, tick throws are one of those things that for the lowest common denominator are pretty much impossible to deal with thanks to not being able to first frame jump out and not knowing how to reversal properly it makes the game near unplayable for them with the only equivalent levels of bad being Sim.
I think giving gief something that if he did guess right it was easier to get in would be nice, right now there are a lot of situations where the only guessing right is blocking as sweeps/limbs/some other technique will beat you out unless they screw up twice instead of just once, taking Sim as an example. A full screen jab fireball if jumped can be punished painfully, if larieted it can be punished painfully, and even if green handed can be punished painfully. Once he gets in the game just becomes guess reversal or guess non reversal on both parts which is severely limited in comparison with most guessing games in the series.
I personally thing that any over powered character is garbage, but that a grappler would only be more of an issue on low level play which is very important to HD remix’ success.
Edit: Wow 4 posts as I typed, I feel lame indeed
Except in the case of dhalsim he doesn’t and you haven’t point out what’s not true. You don’t see how a zero frame attack that beats everything in close changes the dynamic for the worse if he can always get into a position to use it? You can block dhalsim. You can hit his limbs. You can jump. Against a good zangief, your only option against his best attack is to jump.
I think you guys are overemphasizing the whole zero frame grab thing.
I think its just that grappler vs grappler isnt all that fun.
wiggle stick back and forth, throw out some shit -> get knockdown -> perform mixup until it fails -> return to step one.
Its just third strike without the nice animation.
Like I said I don’t play geif but if ryu gets a great tool like fake fb which significantly improves his overall play style then shouldn’t a lower tiered character like geif get something more useful then easier motions and green hand knocking down? Or is that enough?
What best attack? SPD? Aren’t reversals an option for tick into SPD?
What am i missing here?
PS. For the love of God, the avatar! No, please… just… no. LOL.
I think a lot of people are making the SPD sound way too buff. Remember, this concept of the SPD being too powerful HAS TO BE COUPLED with the “theory fighter” idea that Zangief has some magical power to get in on the opponent really easily. And then, after that, what makes the SPD really powerful (in MY opinion) is that it’s too good of a defensive weapon. You can Reversal out of SPD tick attempts, but you can’t Reversal in situations where you are trying to pressure Zangief and you end up putting a hole in your attack pattern. You can pray that you actually DP the ONE FRAME when Zangief starts his SPD, otherwise one frame too early and he blocks or one frame later and you are SPD’ed (it’s not THAT exact, I’m exaggerating a tiny bit here admittedly).
And again, the reason this becomes a concern is because you can’t keep him out anymore, so your BEST option is to actually attack him and try to rush him down, which ends up getting you SPD’ed because of the nature of a zero-frame super long-ranged throw that CAN BE REVERSALED. So if attacking him gets you SPD’ed, you… you should keep him out? But you can’t. So you should… should… you just die, pretty much.
So this is why I claim Zangief needs to struggle a bit to get in. Like djfrijoles stated, the problem is, right now, all he does is try to get in and die. So it’s a VERY tough challenge to balance Zangief out so he cannot get in for free, but still has enough options that allow him to create situations that allow him in.
- James
Zangief spd means instant death. Letting Zangeif get in easier is like giving him an instant kill move."
Thats what I am hearing. I understand the frustration people feel about having a character that can get in easily and do tons of damage, but I have not seen anything that would make zangief actually get in and do all of this stuff. They tried doing this stuff with the lairets and green hand but he still wasnt top tier and didnt ruin the game. What could they possilby give him that would make getting in easier? Unless SPD now sucks you in from full screen away, I am not understanding the fuzz.
Green hand knocking down is a big deal and a great buff to gief imo. Anyone know how close it leaves you next to them?
Wasn’t a patch dated for September 5th?
I’m looking for info on it, but I see grapplers debate and something like that.
Anyone has downloaded it?
How does the online play feels now?
Any new character open?
Or has them delayed the patch?
patch came out a month ago, and the beta is over. it ended on the 5th
Well, the reason I think it would suck to have a grappler dominate is because throws are inherently random. Of course we need throws, otherwise you could just block everything and the game wouldn’t work (unless you made the high/low attack game more powerful, but I don’t know how well that would play), but throws force guessing. Especially in newer SFs, if he gets in on you and has frame advantage, you’re opponent is either going to throw you, or bait a counterhit. There are other options that complicate the guessing game (like a DP), but the idea is that you are forced to make a decision and guess one way or the other. This is not the kind of play you want dominating a game.
I like the damage on SPD moves, because the whole point is that it’s supposed to be difficult to land those moves. But if you make it easier for those characters to get in, it dumbs them down and makes them boring to play as well as play against. From the videos I’ve seen, T. Hawk gets zoned out all day, but once he lands a Typhoon, he can rinse and repeat his way to victory. Like it’s been said, the struggle to get in is the whole point of those characters, and is what makes them satisfying to play.
I’m not sure I like that change, to be honest. I’d hate to think that if I played against Dhalsim or Bison that my whole strategy with Gief becomes trying to smack people with a Green Hand all day, trading with their kicks and what not just to get in. Just seems so unlike Zangief. Doesn’t feel right at all. Plus, it gives Zangief a really viable, hit confirmable Combo (Cross-up Splash, Low Jab x 3 into Green Hand through Renda Kara Cancels) that can be changed to an SPD tick attempt if Blocked. Seems a bit too practical for Zangief and, IMO, really goes against the ideas and concepts that Zangief should have. I’d rather see him get buffs in other areas than that…
…is all I’m saying.
- James
^^^^^ FYI. He already has a “really viable, hit confirmable Combo.” Maybe you forgot!
(Still love ya tho’) 
*Cross-up Splash, Low Jab x 3 > cr.RH
It knocks down and does more damge. Most expereinced Gief players can pull this out on a hit confirm. The only thing the Green Hand renda-kara combo would offer is more meter and move you closer for a better follow up on the get-up (as that he would take a step forward <as> he knocks you down). Wich might be a good trade off, for the small loss of damage.
I sitill contend getting the Kick Clothes Line back would be a better up grade.
But not one that leaves you in a position where you have plenty of time to go for another Cross-up and repeat. That’s the part I forgot to mention. The C.RH works, but leaves you in a position where you cannot cross-up again and repeat the same hit-confirmable combo yet again.
Try it out. Hit someone out of the air with the Green Hand right above the ground. Just watch how much time you have to walk up, take a coffee break, and then still have enough time to cross-up again. 
- James
Tsk, Tsk, James… guilty of replying to a post before you finish reading the whole thing…I guess you didn’t read all of my post… its cool… here it is… :karate:
Who cares want sirlin wants? Its about us and many of us agreed throws are random and garbage,thats why were saying dont make gief even more over power then he already is.
System Direction-Too programming intensive yet CvS2 and 3s teams were able to throw them in on the console ver. Not that hard to make normals chain into eachother or cancel fireball into a super fireball.IMO laziness and foolishness(casuals love extras,like airblock) if SFHD does have System Diirection.
lol! Whoops!! I guess my eyes jumped too far ahead to your bold, underlined, and italicized text. My bad. Sorry.
- James
My response was mainly directed zoo’s comment about gief needing something more useful than a knock down off of green hand. When I said great I pretty much meant powerful. On the other hand I see what you’re saying and it might be stronger than I actually thought.
Yeah I kind of agree with James on this. Gief doesn’t need to get better when he’s inside, he needs to get better when he’s being kept out. I can see green hand being mildly useful against Sim’s far limbs, but a knockdown from that distance wouldn’t get Gief in and it’d be risky and unlikely to work anyway. Unless there are other changes to the move like a bigger hitbox, faster startup, and less recovery, I think knockdown green hand is really only going to make a difference up close in combos.