Official SSF2T: HD Remix General Discussion Thread

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
1941

There is NOTHING wrong with playing a game of keepaway from Zangief. That’s what I WANT from a vs. match with Zangief, understand. Most people are taking what I’m saying too far. I want Zangief to be good. I don’t want him to be too good.

My point is that if you give him (NINJA EDIT: I originally said “too many tools to get in”, what I meant to say was “too effective of tools to get in”) (re: Potemkin in GGXXAC), then you have defeated the design of the Zangief Grappler. The whole game of Zangief is to try and get in. Because no one else wants to get in on you. So by nature, Zangief is a character that must defeat the keepaway tactics of his opponent. You have to go to them. When I play Zangief, the joy of using him is trying to figure a way in.

In Alpha 3, where I could splash over half the cast to get in, Zangief was boring. And he was too powerful. Not only could you NOT keep him away, but you could NOT approach him either. So again, my main point, not paying attention to comparing him to any other character, is that if Zangief is too good (again, regarding having too many ways to get in), it would not be a fun game.

So the question was asked: how is that different than a good an over powered Rush Down character? Or an overpowered Zoner? Or an overpowered Turtler?

The answer is: not much. They’d all be just as annoying. I never said they wouldn’t be. We were talking about Zangief, and I said an overpowered Zangief would not be good for the game.

Okay, so the follow-up question: “That’s dumb, James. Because then you can say that abut any character! An over-powered Balrog would be bad for the game. An overpowered Dhalsim would be bad for the game. An over powered Guile would be bad for the game.”

True. But the reason why I’ve singled out Zangief over other characters is the throw, yes. Keep in mind, again, I have nothing against Throws. I am a Zangief player by heart and will ALWAYS be a Zangief player at heart. I love Grapplers. I love Throwing people to death. But the Throw is a very unique move, especially a 0-frame Throw. If Zangief’s SPD was not 0 frame, I wouldn’t even be having this conversation. For example, if we were talking about Birdie in Alpha 3, I wouldn’t even care. But as a 0-frame move, it really decimates offenses.

Throws are the one type of defense that truly really renders an opposing character’s offense to nothing. Name me one character in ST who can rush down Zangief. No one. Not even Chun and Cammy, two of the main Rush Down characters. You cannot Scissor Kick him even though you Scissor kick the entire rest of the cast (excluding T.Hawk). If Fei Long’s Chicken Wing does now put you with less Frame Advantage, the move will be useless, now, against Gief. You’ll NEVER do it. Chun Li’s standing Strong goes from being an annoying offensive move to a zoning defensive move. She will never walk forward after making you block a Strong. No other weapon in ST does that to moves. Not DP’s, not Fireballs, nothing. Most of the characters defeat Zangief because they can turtle or zone him to death. And admittedly, he is currently insufficiently equipped to get through those and needs to be buffed up in that areas.

But if you over-do it, basically, the way an overpowered Grappler kills you is by making you completely helpless. In a match between an awesome Rush Down character and an awesome Zoner (think Balrog vs. Dhalsim), the two of them base their entire victories on who can keep up their game better. In a match up between anotehr Rush Down vs. Turtle character (think Chun Li vs. Guile), the match up is based on who can keep up their style better. But in a match up of Chun Li vs. Zangief, Chun can’t play her style. In other words, it’s the one main style that INHIBITS other styles. So in the cases where he inhibits Rush Down characters, giving him an ability to easily destroy their keep-away makes it no fun at all.

Bleah. I don’t think I can adequately explain it at all. And, to be honest, I don’t think I understand it myself anymore. So this is my last post on the topic, unless something else really warrants a response, but at this point in time, I’ll shut up on the topic and just concede that it’s a fairly weak argument at this point. I think my opinion is influenced LARGELY based on the fact that I do use Zangief, and I know that it’s more fun to struggle to get in and win (that’s what it feels like the essence of a Grappler should be). It’s like a badge of honor, I guess. I used to specialize in beating Guiles with Zangief in Hyper Fighting. And I know that when a Grappler feels too powerful (like when I used Gief in Alpha 3 and Pot in GGXXAC), it feels far more brainless and boring than when I win with other styles of over-poweredness. It might just be me. shrug

  • James
1942

Some characters just don’t have good ways to reversal out of SPD attacks. So if you could get in for free, there are some characters who could never get you off of them. It’s the effectiveness of tick throws, I think, that would make a grappler obnoxious as top tier in ST, moreso than any other fighting game.

1943

Of course in the end its personal opinion, but for me it comes down to this:

Zoner vs Zoner: fun

Zoner vs Non-Zoner: fun (on either side)

Non-zoner vs Non-zoner: not fun.

Examples:

Shoto vs Shoto: fun

Guile vs Shoto: fun

Rog vs Shoto: fun

Dhalsim vs Fei Long: fun

Fei Long vs Cammy: not fun

Zangief vs T Hawk: not fun

If the grapplers become too good the number of not fun matchups in the metagame increases over the fun matchups imo.

1944

totally agreed with brian.

(good matches the other day too, i’ll have to step up my game)

1945

James, I think I largely agree with your overall premise here. But I would just expand it to say that ANY character type becomes extremely annoying when overpowered. I know people who flat-out refuse to play ST because their favorite character cannot win vs. Old Sagat.

I would also argue that the typical spectator prefers constant up-close fighting over “fireball spam” (to use the popular phrase), and if you wanted your game to come off well in front of a crowd you should be most concerned with your zoning characters.

I mean, I personally agree with brian on this, but I’m aware that we’re in the minority here.

1946

what???
just like you said, its a matter of opinion,
I love those matches, Zangief Vs Zangief, Zangief Vs Hawk,
Hell, i even like the Sim Vs Gief match or Guile Vs Gief. the match that i hate is against Honda :shake:.

1947

I say 3s style with whiffed throws no gay option select,keep the throw range, damage tech,and damage the same.

Anyway speaking of 3S,is it me or should this game have system direction just for kicks? Chain combos,air combos,air block,parry,full super at round start,stun mod,special cancels,super cancels, and other awesomeness. A reward for beating the game with all 17 characters.

1948

Not only should that never happen (it’d change the fundamentals too muchs) it can’t happen (too programming intensive – especially the system directory stuff which is sort of a decent idea for fun I guess)… and wouldn’t happen anyways as Sirlin hates 3s/alpha style throws.

1949

I agree James on this one (not like any one cares, LOL). But to each his own!

Personally though, on the the topic of Fun/not-Fun. I like all the match ups. Even Non-Zoner Vs. Non-Zoner. IMHO, they are some of my favorite match ups. They are like little puzzles, each unique and each with it own solution. Where the solution comes from one part being to play the game (on a knowledgeable and competent level) and the other part being able to play your opponent.

1950

Actually, what goodm0urning said was that they should make sure Gief’s chances of getting in don’t exceed the opponent’s chance of keeping him out–a balance, in other words. Since it’s unrealistic to expect an absolutely perfect balance with as many variables as there are, I’d prefer that Zangief be more stoppable than less stoppable, for reasons I explained in my previous post.

You’re making it out like I (and everyone else) said that Zangief should suck, which is not the case at all.

EDIT:

Putting it this way might be better. I’d prefer that it take slightly more work for Zangief to get in than for the other player to keep him out, but that doesn’t mean that I want keeping him out to be a cakewalk. He should pose a challenge, but one that can be reasonably managed.

1951

You use a zoning character and you never play in non-zoner v non-zoner matchups; what does it matter to you if there are more or fewer non-zoner vs non-zoner matchups, considering that you never play in them? Grapplers could be awful or awesome, and it wouldn’t affect the game’s fun-ness from your perspective.

Whereas, I really like Gief mirrors and Gief vs Hawk and so forth, and it’d be totally fine with me if those characters were better and more people played them and I got to play in those matchups more often. It’s also apparently fine with you if more people play non-zoners because you like zoner vs non-zoner. What’s the problem, from either of our perspectives, with making Gief etc better again?

Also, goodmourning, I’m pretty sure I accurately represented your position in the bit you quoted there.

Everyone wants grapplers (and everyone eles) to be well balanced, me included. But if that’s impossible and one particular character’s style of play ends up the best, I just don’t get the preference or distaste for one style over another.

1952

You didn’t. Maybe it’s my fault for not being clear, but I think there’s a difference between “not as good” and “not good.”

1953

My main character might be Guile, but I play lots of different characters. My second character is Boxer, and Boxer vs Non-Zoner characters isnt as much fun to me as other matchups.

Also, if grapplers became really good I’d probably end up playing as one of them.

1954

It’s because at the fundamental level, a grappler’s playstyle shuts down way more play styles than the others. Like I said before and James reiterated, a grappler in your face completely limits your options and changes the game fundamentally. If SPD weren’t 0 frames of startup, it would be different. Grapplers are the only characters that force action over reaction in capcom games since their number one method of attack shuts down all others when in close. You can’t react to a grappler you have to act first.

1955

That was 'Sims problem. You can’t give a long-range character so many good close-range options (not to mention speed). He had a normal for every situation, and it wasn’t really a big deal if he guessed wrong a lot of the time. He would’ve been far more reasonable if they’d taken b. LP away from him.

It’s less about perfect balance and more about keeping the game from being retarded.

1956

I just don’t think this is true. Let’s see if the following makes sense:

“Dhalsim’s playstyle shuts down way more play styles than the others… Dhalsim is the only character that forces action over reaction in capcom games since their number one method of attack shuts down all others when far away. You can’t react to Dhalsim, you have to act first.”

I think it does. Parts of it aren’t true, but then those same parts aren’t true in the original statement either.

Brian, why are you using secondary characters with matchups you don’t like playing? And why would you switch to a play style you don’t like just because that play style is good? You already main Guile instead of O Sagat or Sim, I don’t see why Gief being the new Sim would make you pick him.

1957

I think the point is how are you supposed to play keepaway from a character that’s pretty much guaranteed to get in (especially if it’s really brainless like splash/knee spamming)? Why do you think Capcom grapplers are almost always low tier? Because they’re afraid of making them too good for this very reason.

That’s why so many characters had such a horrible match-up against Chun’ in A3. If you didn’t have a reversal or some kind of godly early anti-air, she could basically jump at you for free (which wouldn’t be so bad if her pressure game wasn’t so bloody good). So, you figure, “that’s ok, I’ll jump at her.” – only you can’t because her anti-air is also incredibly good. So you decide to play a ground game with her only to find that she out-ranges, out-prioritizes and out-maneuvers you.

Obviously, she’s not unbeatable (neither are A3 'Gief/'Sim), but it’s very obvious that she controls the flow of a lot of the match-ups she plays (V-ISM notwithstanding). A lot of characters had to rely on having meter to limit her options. You’ll notice that when their bar is empty, she’s all over them like flies on shit.

Like, what exactly was her weakness supposed to be other than not having access to her reversal (which she doesn’t need) 100% of the time (I won’t even get into the fact that she’s small and dodges a lot of attacks)? She was mid-tier for a while only because she had no response against V-ISM, and after reliable VCs and multiple infinites for her were discovered, she was rocketed up to top tier status.

The difference is that for grapplers, it doesn’t matter if they have a significant weakness elsewhere if they can literally get in whenever they want to. Like, why would you even bother doing anything else? The only good option your opponent would have is to go in themselves and put themselves in exactly the range you want them to be in.

1958

If I’m playing a given character and someone steps in with a matchup I dont find particularly fun, its not like I’m going to just walk away :). I play Guile mostly because I played with him for a long time before I cared about picking good characters. Then I got good with him so I had an easier time winning with him than the good characters anyway. If I was starting ST fresh I’d probably play Claw or something :P.

1959

HEY!Don’t bring 'Sim into this :wink:!!!

But honestly, he maybe top teir, when a top tier player plays him. But it is very difficult to play 'Sim well and its not ‘easy’ to win with him. You have to still work for a win as with any character in high level play. If you really want to use easy an character to play and win with, I think Claw fits that role better! (IMHO) :smile:

1960

Frankly, I think the thread has been derailed enough. I don’t think there’s much else to be said on the subject matter.

Unless people find the debate to be enjoyable. Then by all means, carry on! :slight_smile:

  • James