But I would argue that different may not necessarily be bad. A lot of these Evo staff types tend to be biased toward fireball traps, which seems to be the source of this type of sentiment, but does this have any more of a solid basis than the Japanese distaste toward defensive play?
I would agree with you if it were specifically a goal to maintain the traditional SF2 feel, but some of the stuff done to weaken fireballs & certain throws already goes against that.
Mmmh, I get what youāre saying and I like your points. I donāt think it changed how I feel though, haha.
I want to clarify or elaborate on what I mean regarding having the game feel like ātraditional SF2.ā Iām all for the game being so much more than just a tweaking of ST; I do want it to be a brand new SF2 game. But thatās the thing, Iād prefer a new SF2 game to a new (SF) game period. I think that that would be better, but thatās because ST is undoubtedly my favourite fighting game and thatās what Iāve been looking forward to, because my peabrain can barely imagine a better experience, flaws and all. 
Depends on what you think is better, of courseā¦ as always we can distill it down to opinion and personal preference but then of course thatās not what weāre getting at. I really donāt mind changes to SF2 dynamics, and honestly thereās a lot of crap that can/should be cleaned up. I just hope that SFHD preserves the beauty of SF2ās flow.
Itās really amazing to me how well that game stands up to mercilessly hardcore play and I donāt think Iāll ever get bored of it, not until I have nobody left to play with. I will try and enjoy other (new) fighting games, but I want my* SFHD to be SF2 through and through. And for the record, almost everything Iāve heard thus far seems to be moving the game in exactly that direction.
*see look how possessive i am
Wow, I didnāt realize Iād start such a hot topic here. Haha. Okay, lemme try to clarify what Iām saying. Characters like Pot are annoying because, yes, the Slide Head is too good.
But the reason I say it is more annoying that heās a Grappler is because, inherently, with Grapplers who have 0 frame grabs (or 3 frames of invincibility as Pot does) is that you can no longer play your game against them. Is that bad? No. Character variety and match-ups are the core fundamental of Fighting Games. But in the case of Grapplers, with a instant grab like Zangief and Pot have, you cannot pressure them. In other words, once you get on top of them, they can SPD you pretty much in any hole you put in your attacks. So what happens is you end up playing some stripped down version of your poking game to make sure you have no holes.
Fortunately, in a game like Guilty Gear, characters like Slayer and Eddie have all sorts of evil things that either trap you or put themselves in the air so they canāt be thrown. But in Street Fighter? Thereās no such thing. You either Jump away, do a DP, or make sure you have no holes. Or just play keepaway. But if the āanti-keepawayā of the Grappler is too good, then the fight just becomes frustrating.
Letās look at Alpha 3 when it first came out. Who was the best character? X-Zangief, remember? His Jumping Splash killed everyone until anti-air VCās were discovered. So not only could you NOT attack him, but he got in for free. And it was real shitty to play against him.
So in Super Turbo, if Zangief is given all sorts of crazy get-in tools, I canāt imagine him being fun at all to fight against. With a character like Zangief, you inherently HAVE to play a keep-away game. Any attempts to attack him result in death.
Best example? The high-level Zangief tactic of Blocking a Jump attack and then doing the SPD so you end in Defensive Crouch. If the opponent lands and tries to pressure, you Grab him. If they attack and do not have any holes from the Jump-in, you block. And then the guy has to make sure he pushes you far away enough or he gets SPDāed anyhow.
(Side note: This is why I despise the Stored Ochio so much. Not ONLY does it allow you to try a throw attempt, but there is no whiff anim. And if he continues to block, you donāt lose the Stored Ochio. AND there is much less timing needed on Hondaās part. And with Gief, you can Jump Back Rundhouse him in the head to hit his whiffed SPD. There is no such option with Honda. And if you step out of Hondaās range, he Low Jabs you.)
Okay, back to Gief. So if you give Zangief a super easy way to get in, he just becomes inherently annoying. Youāll spend your entire match trying to keep him out, failing, and dying. So if you choose, instead, to attack him, you just end up having to risk your life all day with all these holes in your offense to get SPDāed.
Zangief, especially in ST, needs to be equipped with Tools to get in. But he needs LOTS of semi-decent Tools that all serve a different purpose to allow his mind games to help him win. Not give him some ridiculous Jumping Down + Fierce like in Alpha 3 that beats everything.
Potemkin is annoying, yes, because of the Slide Head. But the reason it is annoying is because you spend your time trying to stay away from him, and it gives him too much option from far away with so much reward. Letās pretend Pot has the Slide Head from AC but no Pot Buster at all. Suddenly, the Slide Head becomes moot, because you are spending your whole round ATTACKING him now. You arenāt worried about him Pot Bustering you in the middle of your holes. So yes, the Slide Head is good, but only because of its coupling with the Pot Buster.
Edit: Oh yeah, and trust me, I am NOT in favor of fireball games at all. Iāve never used a fireball character in my life, and every time I do (like Ken in ST), I forget I have them and I just attack without them all day. 
Okay, this post is too long now. Iāll shut up now.
i agree grapplers being overpowered is never fun.
like that bastard clark in kofxi. not only does he have instant throws, he also have an air attack that beats everything.
i think hf and a2 gief were well balanced. gief didnt make a2 game frustrating like he did in a3.
Sup with some of that info?
HA
You know what strikes me about this statementā¦
as of right now
Gief spend entire matches trying to get in, failing, and dying.
I just canāt see why a top tier grappler is inherently more annoying than a top tier zoner, runaway, rushdown, turtler or any other style.
I canāt speak for everyone else, but I think Street Fighter loses a lot of its entertainment value when the gameplay is all close-in. The more you make use of the screen space, the more dramatic the matches are, and a match that consists mostly of grappling seems boring to me.
Not that Gief shouldnāt ever be able to get in, but his chances of doing so shouldnāt exceed the chances of the other character keeping him out. And since thatās a tough balance to achieve, Iād prefer that they err on the side of keeping him out (if making that choice becomes necessary)
I think I made a post on this topic like 50 pages back lol. Someone go find it 
Itās a matter of options and play style from what Iāve read.
What, is Boxer being really good any worse than Sagat or Sim? Boxer usually tries to get up in most charactersā grills, and he can usually do it. Is that what your problem is, that he wants to and can get in, like a good Gief would? Or is the fact that Gief wants to throw you instead of do regular attacks some kind of real difference in acceptability for you between Gief being really good and Boxer being really good? I donāt see any kind of important difference between being annoyed at trying to keep Gief out and being annoyed at trying to keep Boxer out. People rightfully complain about a couple of Boxerās things, but for the most part nobody wants him to be worse at rushdown, and yet apparently lots of you guys actively want Gief to be more on the side of crappy than good.
Honestly some of you guys sound so scrubby right now. āOh, thereās nothing I can do against a good Zangief! Except play better!ā Whaaaaatever.
ud: who said gief should suck? i know i didnt, and i know james didnt. please dont add words into our mouths
GOOOOOOOOO DAVE :woot:
I hadnāt noticed that the whole problem was THROWS.
I just figuered it was the damage level but now that I think about it, no one has challenged his superās damage level.
A lot of people have said that they should err on the side of him not being good rather than on the side of him being good. Goodmourning just did, and Cyborg Cop did a few posts above him. And the thrust of Jamesā posts is clearly that he doesnāt want Zangief to be too good. And donāt put words into my mouth, because saying that you guys want to err on the side of him not being good rather than on the side of him being good is not the same as saying you want him to suck.
good and too good are totally different things. bleh
you fuck me plz and me plz fuck you are even more diffrent if you ask me :looney:
Geif needs a little help. I honestly donāt think ANYBODY debates that.
However, anytime you have a character that can grab you as far away as Geif can (and do the damage he does), I think it is fair to say that they should have some obstacles to overcome when trying to close the gab between themselves and the opponent.
I donāt think it should be as hard as it is now, but I donāt think it should much easier either. It is a very fine line.
As a Sim player, it is not a āknocking downā green hand that scares me. Most of the time ppl green hand a fireball and spin me, if theyāre good enough <and> able to get close enough.
I tell you what would worry me, is if they put the HF 3k clothesline back in. Then I would start really worring. It would open up so much for Geif, but not be too game breaking.
UltraDavid is 100% right.
IMO, the main difference is boxer doesnāt have a zero frame startup attack that forces you to react to what he wants you to do once heās inside. Super hurts and punishes, but only if you make a mistake (admittedly oversimplifying). Boxer can be blocked and his throws can be broken. You can still fight boxer if heās in your face. If a grappler is in your face your options become run or get slammed. it doesnāt matter that keeping them both out is annoying. Zangief (and all other capcom grapplers) changes the dynamic of the game completely when heās in your face.
sometimes i feel like you can read my mindā¦ remember that one??
anyways, so why is everybody talking about Zangief is not good being a top tier?
so how come is good to have a Balrog, Vega, Bison, Sim and all the other guys with all their shinannigans, being top tier and not Gief??? you guys know how hard is to play Zangief?? and some one said that is not fun being thrown to death, Zangief is a Wrestler, thats what he does. but anyways, you guys think is fun playing against a Sim that only does LP YF, and when you jump LK, and if you lariat the YF, they do standing HP, over and over. or against a guile that only does crouching MK, sonic boom, over and over. and im not even going to talk about E. Honda, he is another story.
what im trying to say is, the guy doesnt have fireballs, he is slow, he has a hard time getting in, in almost every character in the game. so why you guys are complaining about giving Poor Zangief some new Tools to get in?