In the HDR thread, if it’s good, it’s broken, and if it’s not good, it can’t possibly win.
Yeah, but we were already fucked before HDR. Now we got standing super and better green hand to play with. 
Although, gief vs bison is gonna be interesting this time around! Invincibility on devils reverse might give bison a lot more options.
Will he be able to go through projectiles with it? Fast projectiles? Meaty fast projectiles? Could you use it for escape like CvS2 Rolento RC scouter jump? Bison has the super-high-and-far headstomp (which I still really don’t know how to do reliably) to get out corners… Maybe if that could work with the devils reverse?
A few comments.
Having Zangief be really good is not a good thing. As a Japanese player told Sirlin early on in the lifecycle of HDR, having Zangief be really good is probably NOT a good thing. Because, frankly, when a Grappler is too good, the game is NOT FUN. All I need to say is GGXX:AC Potemkin. Yes, he is beatable, but goddamn is it a pain in the ass to fight him with certain characters. It is not fun at all. Zangief by nature needs to be a struggle and a challenge. As long as it’s not stupidly impossible to win, Gief is fine.
Secondly, I wouldn’t worry too much about Honda being overpowered. The changes presented by UltraDavid that sound ridiculously buff all sound much better on paper than in actual play. And there is still the mysterious change that Sabre referenced, which helps non-Fireball characters a lot more. I actually don’t think “high tier” is a fair assessment of him.
Isn’t it? Man, I love that picture…
- James
AW MAN
I hope thats not Sirlins mind set for this
gief is fine. stop freaking out lol =)
Thats actually funny cause I already PM’ed Sirlin BEGGING HIM for some info. ANYTHING
[/stalker]
so if you want a good game the grappler characters can never be high tier? that’s a sad thought.
All right, I’ll lighten what I said a bit. Understand that this is MY opinion on Grapplers, not Sirlin’s, so I can’t be sure whether or not Sirlin went with that philosophy or not. I can’t speak for him in any way shape or form.
Can a Grappler be high tier in a good Fighting Game? Yeah, he can. But it’s very dangerous. All games where Grapplers have been high tier, most people hate playing against them. People hated Zangief in Alpha 3, people always seem to express distaste in Makoto in Third Strike, and I know a couple of people who hate Potemkin in Accent Core.
But again, it is a generlization (many people don’t worry about Potemkin, some people will argue that Makoto being good hsa little to do with her being a Grappler, etc.). I guess I’m just trying to comfort those who are claiming that Zangief users are f*cked in STHD. 1) If you play a Grappler, you are masochistic in nature anyhow. 2) Like Sabre said, he’s not as bad as you think.
- James
Does a command grab really constitute Makoto being a grappler?
Street fighter needs a big change, Zangief needs to be the highest tier in the game, J/k. im tired of Sim, Vega, Bison, and Balrog, Zangief needs to be the new top tier.
^ When you can set it up repeatedly and do crazy stun damage I’d say so. =P
I don’t play geif or hawk but it sounds like hawk got the better end of the deal. I guess greenhand knocking down is real good cuz then u can do cross up splash or whatever on wakeup but is that plus easier motions enough?
I thought people hated Makoto for the same reason you hated Chun’s neckbreaker…
Not really, though I know where you are going with it. People hate Makoto because of her inherent randomness. But Makoto is more similar to Vega’s Wall Dive than Chun’s Neckbreaker. And even then, that doesn’t match up either.
Again, Chun’s neckbreaker has two benefits: 1) Even the performer doesn’t know which side he/she is going on. 2) There is NO negative situation the Chun Li can end up in outside of a lucky reversal on the part of the person rising, which is VERY hard to do.
For Vega’s Wall Dive, the performer still has to choose left or right and has total control over which side he ends up on. Being random to the point where the performer doesn’t know what side they are ending up on isn’t possible. for Vega. Most of the time they end up stabbing on the opposite side they thought they were going to is the result of a mistake. But he still benefits largely from the other benefit in that if the opponent guesses right and blocks, Vega is in no disadvantaged position.
With Makoto, the player DOES have to pick one option or the other. And in her case, there is almost never an accidental random benefit. The Makoto user is in full control of what choice they want to make, and there is 100% no randomness in the result. It’s still randomness generated by a player’s mind. Not only that, but when the defender guesses correctly, a lot of the time (not always), he / she CAN punish Makoto for being outguessed. Neither Chun nor Vega can be punished if the opponent guesses right, and Chun has the added benefit of being in a position of total advantage afterwards (HUGE frame advantage) and always being on the same side of the opponent.
So no, it’s not the same thing at all. Nice try, though. 
- James
I think the same thing can be said about long-range zoning characters.
See A3 'Sim 2K2 Billy for details.
well, kof has always had high tier, extremely capable grapplers, and that series has always been in pretty high regard (well the good games anyway. none of them show the taint that you claim could happen with powerful grapplers in fighting games).
Could it be the removal of jab headbutt invincibility?
Could you list the differences between ST and KOF grapples as well as the differences between ST and KoF98/02’s systems that would affect the usefulness of command grabs? I don’t have much experience with KoF but your comparison sounds like too many factors were left out.
Do Kof grabs have one frame of start up? Can ticks be jumped out of? What is the reversal window? How much damage do KoF command grabs do? Are there safe jumps in KoF?
One thing I do know is that command grabs in KoF can grab out of hit stun.
(Feel free to correct me if I’m talking out of my ass)
Well I’m pretty sure they have more than a few frames start up and don’t do a ton of damage. But thats not quite whats different. The grappler mentality is different. They are faster, well rounded and can often rush and are pretty much ALL faster than SF grapplers… They are, in a lot of ways, more ‘mixed grapplers’ by SF standards. I never feel as restrained with Clark as I do with Zangief – I feel like a very complete character who just happens to be able to throw. Tick throwing doesn’t need to be central to my game. I can do plenty of damage just doing basic high low mixups before comboing into throw.
Though if I’m correct, Goro is a ‘bit’ more traditional in the grappler role and he, as far as I understand, is a huge pain in the ass in 98 where he’s top tier. Very Potemkin style. You can deal with him but hes not too fun to fight fo rmost people. But again I could be talking out of my ass.
The big difference is combo into grab (you can grab someone in hitstun). In KOF you don’t have to worry about tick throwing so much, cause if you get the hit, you get the grab. Also another difference is in Dragon Punches- typically in KOF, uppercuts have startup and/or no invincibility, so in some cases you can grab a DP.
Also, hops play a factor as well.
Some grabs are one frame, other graps are longer but have invincibility frames. Ticks can always be jumped out of regardless of what kind of throw (delayed or instant) is being used. I don’t know the reversal window but it’s pretty lenient, you can input things a quite a few frames before you should and your reversal will come out. However, it is not necessarily true that your reversal will beat the throw, as throws can even grab you out of dps although it’s rare. Kof command grabs can do a lot of damage but not as much as ST ones. However, they can set up some better oki games I think, but it probably isn’t as threatening as in ST just because of the fact that reversal is usually the only way out of some things in ST.
Yes there are safe jumps in KoF.
??
No they can’t. In fact, there is more throw invincibility in kof than there is in ST (by invincibility I mean, the amount of frames where a character cannot be grabbed either on wakeup, or getting hit(unless it was a cancelled grab) or being in block stun).
Also consider that alternate guard glitch (blocking high/low really fast while in blockstun) makes all grabs whiff in kof.
As pointed out, Zangief in ST is a stupid character. Never ever should you have a character where the only way to get out of his trap is to do a risky reversal.
Edit: Also the reasons Potemkin is a good grappler is totally not the same reason why Zangief is a good grappler in ST. I wouldn’t even really call Potemkin a grappler…he has a potemkin buster but his game does not center around it.
I’m sorry, this is what I was referring to when I said it grabs out of hit stun. I was not aware it only worked in chains and not links.