Team discussion thread! :<
Oops! forgive me sir, will copy paste it
-LK Shredder is an odd case. if you block only the 3rd hit it’s indeed -3, but if you block all 3 hits, it’s -4. So I’ll use that value instead as it’s more likely to occur. Tho, you can actually reversal/move/duck between the 1st and 2nd hit. If you block the first 2 hits and then duck, the 3rd will also hit, despite that you’re crouching. I will use -4 for the frame data table, since it’s more likely to occur.
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c.hp xx LP sway seems to be -14 on block (so just like a raw c.hp). HOWEVER, it covers a great distance and can only be punished if you’re in the corner or by long reaching supers \ cross arts. if you cancel LP sway by LK\MK\EX Shredder, you can actually counter-reversal their reversal (reversalception!). It’s a very decent option.
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cl.hp xx LP sway should be -4 on block, which makes it 3 frames more punishable then a raw cl.hp, but only in the corner. due to the range, even 3 Frame supers don’t hit in time, making the move probably entirely safe outside of it. Again, you can cut 9 frames (so being +5 at that time) by aborting sway with another special move. For instance, cl.hp xx LP sway xx Smasher beats Sagats reversal super lol.
-far s.hp is -10 if I’ve tested correctly. Since you’re already a small distance away to get far s.hp in the first place, it’s almost safe against anything that isn’t a long reaching cross art, super or normal (bisons s.hk can barely hit him if done from very close). safe against any sort of DP tho. Normal far s.hp is -8, meaning if you cancel it into any other special you can make it rather save. With it’s start up increase, it’s a decent way to fish for ch crumbles. you have more then enough time to land a Mortar after you have swayed, to make the opponent ground bounce.
[456] cl.hp, c.mp xx Raze, cl.hp xx EX Mortar, s.hp xx Smasher
I noticed that EX Mortar does different ground bounces, or that you have different timing when using it afterwards sometimes, since s.hp is tricky to hit with, but I’m not sure on what that depends. =/
Hi guys, I was wondering if I could get confirmation that far st.HP is indeed -8 on block. I’m in training mode right now, and I’m failing to punish it with Ken’s Sweep (8f start-up). It might be just that I suck at frame perfect punish.
Normal reversal timing is just really weird. try using a 8F and 9F move (paul’s super and guil’s ca or something).
I’ll go right into the lab!
edit: it’s -7. (ex SBK is also not 8f start up I found out)
When you juggle into EX mortar, they end up further away. I think the distance to your opponent might change slightly based on how you DI the EX smasher in the air as well.
Btw, the JP of the hits in his tekken strings are all JP 4, and they all add 1 to the JC on a juggled hit. What I thought was a sign of adding 0 was actually a glitch with Steve’s Albion Combination when tag cancelled, where the first hit would count as an AA and not a juggle, meaning you could also, for example, juggle with raze, s.LP, s.LP after it.
f.MP is JP3 and adds 1 to JC on juggle.
does that include f.hp?
lol @finding that weird glitch xD
So many wrong numbers. It took me playing around with Paul to find out that Sagat’s EX TU was actually 3f, not 4f like LP version.
wait, really? I always use sagat to check frame data that is in the merits of 4-6 frames Oo.
are you sure? where how did you check it?
Yes, f.HP included. Although it can’t connect in a juggle, only on ground bounce.
Try this:
Sweep normal hit -> forward dash3 then block. Ken’s LP SRK does not punish this, but his HP SRK does. This is because his LP SRK is 4f and EX SRK is 3f, and Sweep -> dash3 is -3***. Then try to punish it with Sagat’s LP TU and EX TU.
*This is because Sweep has 74f knockdown frames (the opponent is hittable at 75th frame), and Paul’s sweep recovery + remaining 2 active frames is 26f in total, then dash3 is 173=51. 74-26-51=-3, so he ends up being -3
k thanks. with the general discussion OP I finished the table. will upload it in a few minutes. You’d put me at ease, if you’d double check for any mistakes.
what the hell is with that weird setup? xD
I’ll try to see if I can find another -3 move and test it with that. Where did you get the knock down frame data btw? I want to do some setup math and this would help me greatly.
I got knockdown frame data specifically using the above setup and math 
On CH sweep it becomes a 76f knockdown, so the opponent is hittable at the 77th frame (the setup becomes -1). This is, of course, assuming his frame data of sweep (4f active, 23f recovery) is correct.
Actually, yea if you can test it that will be great. I didn’t care much about Sagat’s EX TU so I just thought “wtf?” and left it at that. Never bothered to test with other -3 moves.
EDIT:
I just tested it in 1.06 PC. Balrog’s LP dash straight and EX dash upper, which are supposed to be -3 on block, get punished by reversal EX TU, and block LP TU. EX dash straight is out of range so Rog blocks it at a later frame.
it’s 3 frames (tested with law’s f.mp on block and ken’s mk tatsu). I’m shocked :<
edit: updated the frame data with all the recent findings and added JP/JC thanks to Doopliss.
I do thorough checks before I confirm anything, and this time I only used moves I know the properties of, so I’m certain.
I mean check the table if I didn’t do a mistake^^
I guess you forgot to change the recovery frames according to the change list. Like far st.HP now having 17 recovery instead of 23 and stuff.
The >P part in f+HP>df.HK>P is also +3 on hit (I think). Also, regular PS has JP of 5; I think you put 6 by mistake.
Oh. No, it seems alright. Maybe you should specify that all hits have that JP for the multi-hit moves, but other than that it’s fine.
Nope, it’s 6. You can do HK shredder, HK shredder, PS but not EX PS. Other than that it dosn’t really matter though, since it’s too slow to hit after mortar.
O crap. Didn’t think they would give PS a JP of 6. Thanks for the correction!
I did! but wasn’t that only for “hit recovery” or something? So the overall recovery got reduced but it does less block stun?
Mhhh, it stated that it’s only for “bonebreaker”, does that mean it’s also for hangover +2?
are you sure PS has JP 5? I got the 6 from Dooplisseseses (wtf xD) thread.
I think that’s selfexplanatory when only one number is written there 