How is Haggar Ass ??? I know these aren’t his forums but I am curious as to why you think so?
He gets lamed out super-easily, even more so than our zombie girl in my opinion.
Hsien-Ko is such an incredibly handicapped character that every win with her is immensely satisfying. Every character matchup for her is a seriously uphill battle, and you only stand a chance if you are able to constantly outwit your opponent and make no mistakes. I could forgive her being shipped in this state - maybe she was developed dead last and they had no chance to really test her out. A stretch, but I’m willing to buy it. What I’m not willing to buy is how it should be painfully obvious where she needs improvement, and yet as of SDCC virtually none of her glaring issues were addressed Capcom has a long way to go with her before Ultimate releases in order for her to even begin to hold a candle to her opponents. As of now, UMvC3 just offers her more crap to throw and a couple of jump-cancel options, neither of which address any of her core issues. In the words of everyone’s favorite Canucklehead, this is UNACCEPTABLE!!! (swiss cheese!)
She goes into battle with literally everything working against her: low health, low damage, low meter gaining potential, high hitstun decay rates, slow walk speed, slow air dash, ground dash is a slow and awkward short range teleport that just puts her in range of low mashing, non-existent mobility means for an incredibly predictable approach and all but prevents mixup options, a heavily punishable launcher with virtually no horizontal range, projectiles that disappear if she gets hit, gongs failing more than half the time against fast projectiles, anki-hou screwing you over when she produces bombs, uncancellable and incredibly punishable senpu-bu, no hypers with invincibility frames, blade hyper has a ridiculously long startup, ball drop hyper that literally does random amounts of damage, a power up mode hyper that lasts a measly 5 seconds and if that weren’t enough, completely prevents meter gain… think that just about covers it!
If you manage to win with Hsien-Ko on point, you either completely outplayed and mindfucked your opponent, or they simply let you win. Even against the worst players, it is extremely difficult to pull off wins and not get blown up. Knowing this, I savor every OCV I score with her and resist the urge to send a message to my opponent, hoping that they realize they just lost to the worst character in the game. In Street Fighter terms, she makes Dan look like Yun.
QCF+S would give it the same trajectory all the time, which might help it be less hax heh. Imagine throwing 3 bombs starting L to M then to H, have the whole screen covered hehe. Or could just throw lots of L bombs and ping them at the enemy, man that’d be so much fun.
You forgot her incredibly lackluster command grab.
Argh, I knew I forgot something. Yes, her ridiculous command grab, where it is shown those big ass claws are truly for decoration. They phase right through the enemy. It should definitely be bigger - like Felicia bigger.
I wish I could just send this to Capcom and have it be considered.
Oh, and as for her grab range, yet again, another case of the worst of her being included. I’d also like to be able to set up tick throws with (cr.):l: teledash Houten Geki like in VSav.
I’ve won with Lei Lei on point, something like Hsienko/Doom/Haggar. But everything pointed out definitely feels true Lol, Hsienko is not character I want to quit on she was something I wanted to main at the beginning but now I just realize how badass I have to be with her just to win urgh. I never once grabbed anybody with her command grab, ever.
But the Light version has such a BIG range imo … I can barely get in to use anyone elses command grab… (then again I may just suck at it) … I usually land it after I sen Bu through someone with the light version grab…
Also It would be nice to air combo into at least light Sen Bu … or combo into L Sen Bu anywhere for that matter …
Light version of the command grab is super slow, 9 frame start-up. Felicia’s is 1, 3, 5 frame start-up H, M, L respectively methinks. Hsien-Ko’s is 2, 5, 9. I’m not complaining about Felicia’s as I think it’s awesome, I think Hsien-Ko’s should be just the same as hers though.
OiC…
Okay, the facts have been covered pretty well by Ranadiel. I, for one, am not the type to get bogged down by such trivial matters and enjoy the possibilities to be discovered. Looking at how our Chinese ghost got changed, it still supports the idea that Lei-Lei is a control type zoner…something like putting SFIV Dhalsim into the MvC3 engine. The interesting tidbit I would like people to try out in the next build of the game is to see if unblockables became that much easier for our Chinese ghost.
Think about this. Lei-Lei’s hardest problem is that even if she tracks you down somehow and pins the opponent down…she really has no worthwhile way to open you up. I believe Renegade addressed this earlier in MvC3’s lifespan, that the opponent simply has nothing to fear when it comes down to just blocking all her attempts. Houtengeki is that much of a shitty command throw, even if kara’d. Now that the two command normals are capable of being jump canceled, this relieves this issue with the proper set up. Combine the command normals f.
and f.:h:, both capable of being added into blockstrings, with a delayed low hitting assist. X-23’s ankle slicer and She-Hulk’s Torpedo come to mind. Using those components, you now have a way to pry that annoying shell open…even if it will take more work and dedication to learn to do it consistently. This would allow for more creative reset opportunities; something that could easily address the low damage output.
Another interesting tidbit is that we have ways to stay ON that juicy opponent ass using the jump cancel normals. Toss in a lockdown assist (or even without one) and use the blockstrings to bait out an advance guard. You can blockstring into one of the command normals and jump cancel it into her airdash or a j.:h:. Having Lei-Lei’s unique airdash also might throw some people off due to the speed of it, but I’m going more for the fact that her normals simply have fantastic range. Combine this with a lockdown assist, you’ll have time to set up an Anki-hou :h: and possibly create another unblockable situation with her long range normals.
Faster Gongs mean her assist might come out faster and reduces her risk of being hit out of it. I like that buff, since DF Gong is shaping up to be quite an annoyance. Still want some mobility fixes, cause the only thing she’s good at now is retreating, stalling for time, or serving as an assist in DF mode. Even something as simple as her air dash being reverted to VS would do. Oh, and Tenraiha should be converted back to VS mode or give us the ability to move immediately after it’s done executing (remove that awkward immobile phase). First hit overhead, second shockwave, and the rest of the balls can be blocked high or low and do not necessarily combo. The lockdown and mix up potential is hella great and would fix the issue of the random balls. But alas, we might not even get that. <3
Don’t be mistaken - I have a lot of things to complain about Hsien-Ko’s poor design and implementation - trivial matters, as you called them - but that doesn’t change the fact that I still enjoy using her and am constantly looking for new ways to win.
I am interested in seeing how the jump cancel command normals will figure into her game and am happy to see that improvement. Having said that, it still doesn’t even begin to address the wave of glaring issues she has to deal with compared to the rest of the cast. One change that I would like to see that I don’t think has been brought up is to allow her Henkyo-Ki projectiles to stay active even if she gets hit. This would be a huge boon to her zoning and defensive game, especially if that is the path Capcom wants her to take.
Yes, this. I mean, they stayed out in VSav (ES Version), though I try to avoid pining for the past. I’d like her TRH to be like her old version like Sekai said too, though knowing Capcom, that’s asking for too much. And I want those Anki Hou unblockables back. And those Pendulums…
As for her jump-cancelable cmd normals, I just hope that she’ll actually be able to follow them up.
But really, if she got one, just one, buff, I’d like it to be to her speed. I’m fine with getting creative; it’s what makes characters fun. Just not if they constantly have to fight uphill just to be somewhat decent, and when she could easily be much better. If she’s really meant to zone, then she needs the mobility to do it. Just look at what happened to Arthur.
I don’t think anyone could blame us for pining for the past, because in the past, she was good.
Honestly I could get behind the idea of a slow, Dhalsim-like Hsien-Ko, but she doesn’t have the crucial tools necessary to make her effective zoner. Using Dhalsim as an example - yes, his moves have long range, and he is painfully slow mobility-wise. But between his projectiles, his supers, his incredibly fast teleports and a few weird moves like the drills, he has more than enough good tools at his disposal to win.
The sad thing about Hsien-Ko is that she has the tools available, but they are all present in some half-assed form. If they fixed the bombs, made pendulum cancellable and made gongs come out faster and persist even if she got hit, that would be a huge boost to her. She wouldn’t even need to be faster in order to compete. Between defensive gong walls, long range normals, projectiles that were actually reliable and a swing that could be cancelled, she would be a much better at what I think they’re trying to make her into. In her current state, I don’t think anyone knows what role she is supposed to fall in other than underdog/comic relief.
Probably forced underdog. Though I still have the deep-seated feeling that she and Shuma were tossed in to fulfill Niitsuma’s… desires.
No, really. Just look at their quotes together. I will admit that they made me laugh the first (and one of the only, and it’s mostly been arcade of course) times I saw them though.
Morrigan has a pretty unsettling win quote against Shuma too. :x
Oh, yeah, that one. Hers was almost inevitable, I’m afraid to say. Still find it funny, though. At least the devs clearly had a lot of fun with Shuma.
Faster gongs, or faster anything for that matter have yet to be confirmed. LLND’s posts make it sound like she didn’t have faster anything. His impressions are probably more accurate than people who were at SDCC who have little experience with the character. On the SDCC stream everything looked faster, ie: people saying Trish got faster startup and recovery on her specials, but a lot of it had more to do with the stream going below 20fps, and making everything look a lot faster than it really was.
Still, I like the ray of hope you present about her command normals being jump cancelable. I’m usually so flaberghasted by how amazing her new item tosses are that I forget about those. ’ ___ ’
Spoiler
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A bit of correction: Dhalsim’s air dash in MvC2 is actually incredibly good; it’s 8 way and almost as fast as Storm’s dashes. That’s why he’s ranked #15 in that game. If Hsien Ko had that air dash she would have been quite high in the tier list too.