I think fanatiq is really underestimating the value of resets in this game, especially against characters with moderate or high health, since combo > reset > combo nets you a kill almost every time, only certain combos into super leave you with favorable positioning. I laugh every time Magneto ends his loop with j.S into shockwave, since after a full combo shockwave does ass damage and leaves Magneto with godawful positioning. The reason Wong is cleaning house at the majors is because he resets people while everyone else ends the combo with a super and forsakes all positioning and okizeme. Obviously a few characters have hypers that give favorable positioning, but it’s hardly universal.
The real concern here is that multiple tech options force the attacker to think as well, which SRK doesn’t like. That’s not a character attack or troll, just an observation.
The complaints about MvC3 being too much about setups and not about the combos confuses me too since MvC2 was all about setups.
You guys are spot on about damage, at least for most characters. People like captain, hulk, thor, etc. couldn’t function without damage. Think SF2 Gief, Hawk, or Honda.
Not really. At best it says you have a team that goes well with Sent. At worst it says you just aren’t creative.
Like I said, spot on about damage and level 3 X-factor people. The rest? Not so much.
edit: @grandabx: You won’t like BBCS2. Characters can take off a third to two thirds of your life in a combo.
Storm and Mags are still reset monsters and I can’t wait until people start truly abusing that aspect of their gameplay. I love the air tech system because it means it’s not damn near free anymore. And even if they block the reset the aggressor still has favorable positioning and momentum. I don’t see the downside to attempting a reset at all when he it’s executed well.
Gameplay
-Nerf general damage across the board. Some characters can keep their current output, but the majority of characters in this game can kill way too fast. I can’t even begin to count how many times I landed one cr.L and ended up killing 2 characters with the subsequent combo. Its not any fun if I’m killing characters with no real effort. Sure, setting up for combos and stuff can be difficult against someone who knows what they’re doing, but it usually only takes 1 mistake for the entire game to be lost.
-Certain characters need X-Factor nerfs, others need buffs. Either that, or just make X-factor last the same amount of time for all 3 levels.
System
-Rooms with connection status in ranked and player matches. Ala SSFIV. And let you choose your opponent.
-Automatically set stages to Random instead of Training.
-FRIGGEN SPECTATOR MODE IN LOBBIES. Gah, you’d think something that was available in arcades would be available here.
HSF beats every teleport and kills Phoenix. Hard drive beats everything she does (even super) besides ground teleport and kills her too. Like I said he needs a good guess but he needs only 1, while she can hit him easily but needs lots of combos do end the fight.
Only thing I think is dumb about Sentinel right now is trade HSF… It’s stupid as hell that hitting Sentinel out of HSF’s animation actually leaves him advantageous most of the time because the drones don’t stop coming AND Sent recovers faster from hitstun ( other than hard knockdowns ) than he does from HSF’s animation.
The OTG cinematic into scaling reset trick is pretty broke too.
Justin has been smashing Sentinels, yeah. But y’all can’t go saying “therefore sentinel is overrated” until y’all have seen what Justin’s sentinel can do, because Justin has been doing well against everybody’s EVERYBODY. I still think when Justin starts using sentinel teams seriously we will see even more potential out of the robot (he said he doesnt use him now because he’s too cheap). I’m not jocking Justin, but he is on a tear right now, a very smart mvc3 player, and undoubtedly one of the top 2 players in this game right now.
I’m learning to tolerate the easy high damage combos, unrollable OTG’s, and ridiculously deadly throws, but the thing I can’t deal with is X-Factor. Level 3 XFC pretty much turns the match into sudden death mode. Capcom wanted to put in some corny mechanic where the chances of winning could be 50/50 again once a person got down to their final character. It makes the game feel like most matches are based around this one gimmick. It’s almost always worth your time to save your XFC until lvl 3. They ought to scrap the whole damage/speed boost of XFC and make it so it’s just a cancel that restores red health and negates chip damage. This would be reasonable, even on the level 3 time limit.
I’m not opposed a little tweaking of level 3 X Factor and some damage output levels, but not necessarily to the extent that some here are suggesting. Don’t want this shit turning into another Super Street Fighter 4.
This, basically. Saying that Wong is a bad example to base an argument on is pretty weak, as these games should be balanced around high level play and there’s no one playing on a higher level than Wong at the moment. He isn’t doing many fancy combos, but he’s excelling at opening his opponent up and shutting their options down. Check out the footage of his Zero/Felicia team at WB if you don’t think resets are going to pay dividends in this game.
Level 3 XFC is too much. Either tone down the damage, take off 4 of the 6 years of time it takes to deplete, or a little of both and find a happy medium. If this means you have to also tone down level 1 and 2 XFC thats fine with me.
I wish the scaling was a little different too. I love how easy it is to get 400,000-500,000 damage and then if you want to pull off something way fancier and extend it you only get to 600,000. Essentially making the simple combos which can be performed in a coma much more practical than ones that actually take a little time and practice. I know they wanted to make this game easier for new players but they almost made it too easy.
Wong kind of proves all these problems people are bringing up wrong, so that’s why people cite him. They say resets suck, then Wong uses Tron and Shulk and shuts the second best MvC3 player down completely. They say Sent is broken, and Wong shuts that shit down too.
I think most important of all is that the game is still young, and yet people are making bold declarations on the game as if there’s been years of data on it and no growth, when in fact there’s a new BnB every day and a new infinite every third day. Come on people.
The high damage does not hinder the game whatsoever. Resets should be risky, considering you’re purposefully dropping a combo for more damage. How can you complain about high damage but want sure fire resets?
I agree with both these posts. Justin Marvelous Wong is just going to be Justin when it comes to these games. It’s no excuse to cite him or rule him out though. While he can expose things right now, he is also sitting on some really scarey technology with some of the “top tier” characters, don’t you worry. So yeah as I have said before, saying anything sucks, or sleeping on any character (especially Sentinel) is just flat out brainless at this point. People need to give it a rest and just relax with the game for awhile, work on getting the system into your veins.
And yeah, I think its almost unanimous at this point that XF3 is pretty fucked up. Either the timer needs to be reversed so its 20(1) > 15(2) > 10(3) or they just need to keep the additional benefits like no chip, cancelling, regeneration, reduced damage scaling (these are all ridiculously nice perks already).
That teams match at WB5 when Sanford had 3 characters and that ADD kid took him out with XF3 Sentinel made me throw up in my mouth a bit. Yipes just laughing at Sanford was lolz though.
Yeah, you have to take into consideration everything that is going into a combo. That simpleton magic series into otg > super, may be quick and easy damage but they just lost a meter doing it. Compare with the guy who took the time to learn the extended combo that while it only nets an additional 100k damage, it paid for itself by building an entire extra meter.
Designing a game around “high level play” is completely insane. I would love to see a lead designer pitch that to a producer at a meeting…
Producer: "Good morning, Mr. Designer. The word from usability is that the game feels unfair. How can we patch this and take care of those complaints?"
SRK Designer: "Hey bro, Justin can own those salty scrubs so yo the game is mango. We should wait a few years and see if those bitches can learn how to block that shit and if they can’t then they deserve to lose."
Producer: “Pack your things and leave company property before lunch break.”
No it isn’t. Why the fuck would you balance the game around the assumption that the player is a dolt and can’t do very basic things?
Could you imagine an SF4 dev suggesting Blanka be nerfed into the dirt because his ten year old son can’t beat repeated ball spam? Or if they decided to nerf doom in mvc3 because someone couldn’t figure out how to jump over his beams?
You present an interesting binary. According to the model you suggest, users who are not in the top 0.0001% of competitive gameplay are “dolts”. You are either a champion or a complete nobody, and if you are a complete nobody, you should aspire to be a champion, else these games are inappropriate for your skill level.
True story: I played MvC3 after work today with other employees. They are fairly comfortable with fighting games, and one of them would go as far as saying that he was skilled. After a game of level 3 xfactor’s Sent wiping a team of 3 characters with high health, one of the players declared that the game was unfair, and was obviously discouraged. The other players in the room all agreed that the game was unfair, including the person playing Sent. The perceived imbalance was so great that it trivialized the game, and players did not feel incentive to continue to invest time. Even if Justin Wong can overcome it, these players felt that they could not, and the game was dropped.
Video games are supposed to be fun, not supposed to be an inerrant device used measure the skill of the player. If a preponderance of players feel that a game is unfair and should be modified, and this modification can be shown to increase their enjoyment of a product, then the product should be modified. You may think that’s worthy of a huge laugh, but that’s the business game developers are in.
If you disagree, feel free to present a seminar at next year’s GDC. I think the title should be, “Keys to Better Design: Only the hardest-core motherfuckers need apply. Pussy-ass bitches shouldn’t buy my game unless they’re willing to make it into a lifestyle. Stay free.” I’m sure you’ll win other people over with your compelling vision.
Mischaracterizing my point entirely, try reading, either in general or on how to properly discuss something before posting again
And you’re saying… developers should cater to that mentality? That the game should be built for people who can’t be bothered to put effort into exploring it? That if there’s some basic tactic that requires even a modicum of effort to overcome that said tactic should be obliterated entirely? And you don’t realize why that’s patently absurd? Again, would street fighter be a better game without fireballs? After all, people who can’t figure out how to jump over them or block call them cheap you know…
In any other venture, whether entertainment or not, such a mentality would be shunned and ridiculed, but our progressive friend here believes that such mediocrity should not only be tolerated, but exulted and encouraged.
They’re not supposed to be stripped down to the lowest common denominator either, because that’s not fun… and it shows, games that are built in that fashion tend to not do as well as you imply they would…I’m actually interested in your example of a multiplayer game dumbed down into oblivion that still sells well though. The last section is entirely incorrect too. Game developers are not at all in the business of catering to some undefined group’s arbitrary whims. They’re in the business of designing games that their company in turn sells ( or gives to a publisher to sell ) to turn a profit.
You’re not very good at coming up with titles, though I’m not sure if you’re simply incompetent or being intentionally obtuse because you lack the drive or ability to engage in a proper discussion. Either way, “stay free” as it were.
There’s just far too much interconnection in such a game to warrant nerfing something on a random whim from someone who can’t be bothered to figure it out in the first place… Though I love the way your example producer can’t even think enough to question “usability’s” suggestions and would fire his developer on the spot for having the gall to disagree with him. Certainly sheds some interesting insight on you at the very least
For obvious reasons citing wong is a bad idea. In mvc3 if we cited wong, ruby heart jill and ken were clearly top tier as they were able to beast some of the best players in the world. Sure no other person on the planet could win with those teams, but since Wong did it, magneto storm and sentinel were no better than the average cast right? Or the fact that wong beat several top players with 3 captain commandos. No other person can do it, but since wong did it, we should conclude that captain commando is a good character on point? GTFO
Wong specifically said sentinel is too cheap. If people got better than him, he’d switch to Sent. Thing is he’s so much better than everyone else that he doesn’t have to. Doesn’t make sent any less broken. BTW I Play sentinel and if he doesn’t get nerfed I don’t truly mind. My biggest complaint is the teching and that characters can’t turn around mid air even in super jump…whiffing normals not building meter, pushblock being too damn far and other little things. Whatever, I’ll still be doing lots of MM’s at evo and I’ll still win the vast majority of them regardless.
