i’ll only ever fight zero with iron man if i have to , for some reason and i dont know why he often trades with zero’s sword , other than that you cant touch him for shit while he is swingng that shit around , it’s the best offence and defence in the game , it dont even really matter what button you press either you have a decade to hit confirm into something
HaggER assist, lazy combo, kill zero, laugh
Yep, you can totally counter-pick zero with an assist. Not so true of all the characters.
just bait out the mayor and punish
isnt he small enoguh to stand under haggar assist?
Zero sitting on charged buster shot can definitely do something about Hagger assist. More than a lot of the cast. Dance around the opponent, when you see HAYGAR come out wait for the recovery and blast him or just blast the point character first so you wont get comboed.
I like Zero plus HAYGAR assist.
This is also true, but the second you’ve made Zero have to think about that stuff, you’ve given yourself an opportunity to do something. And if Zero decides to shift into a zoning strat, that’s more manageable than that godforsaken sword.
It’s not like the point character is just standing there ya know…
Unless your blockstring consists of cr.l x N, not really. You can block but then you’re open to mix up.
True dat. But it’s like one of the only things that prevents Zero from going in all guns a blazing and wrecking shit. Can’t just mash on command dash+J.H covered by an assist when the mayor is on DECK.
When you have to pick an assist to calm down a character…that means that character rapes your shit. Haggar is a rape assist and Zero is a rape character. Just because the key to beating Yun in 3S is beating him down before he gets a chance to activate more than 2 Genei Jins doesn’t mean he all of a sudden doesn’t rape your shit anymore.
The fact that Zero can reliably do things about X character plus Haygar assist that most no other character can ensures you that Zero will be the force of the game. If Zero has to pick up HAYGAR/Tron to ensure he can run around doing whatever he wants…damn well Zero is the boss and he’s gonna do it. Which IMO he’s one of the few characters that’s capable of doing things to back down even Haggar assist without needing Haggar or Tron himself.
Actually one thing I have noticed about a lot of Haggar assist users is they literally just stand there and wait for you to run into Haggar, especially if they have a character that can self OTG. They will move forward, call Haggar, and wait to see if you ran into him like an idiot.
I would argue there are characters in this game that you can’t even do that to.
this i cant tell you how many times i have just waited while their hagger is spinning then he stops…then i just walk up and grab them, they tend to be kinda mindfucked when people are actually cautious around hagger assist and honestly i think if zero was more popular he was have a much higher happy birthday rate than wolvie just because hes ground normals are so insane
tron users are just as bad
just asking for you to backdash hyper her ass
Ammy is way better than trish. Viper and Iron Man are vaporware. Dorm way too higher, Tron way too low
Lol probably. I pretty much dont know what im talking abotu most of the time.
im actually REALLY glad tron and haggar assists are in this game… it makes it less random imho, they both represent thinngs you HAVE to respect, and, through respect, allow access to actual mindgames rather than stupid dicerolls.
as it is when there is no tron or hagger on either team shit just becomes really random cuase its all about who scores that “first hit” and since so many things can lead to that first hit, theres not a whole lot of strategy going on… just throwing out random shit and hoping for the best… random shit being your characters best 3-5 moves that have priority range speed and safety on block.
tron and haggar beat alot of that shit for free so it takes some of that random element out.
-dime
Pretty much, yeah. If I hear the word “Unacceptable!” one more time… :lol:
My point was not to emphasise the need to tier characters individually, as this is clearly a team based game and is something I’m not attempting to neglect. However in MvC3, Phoenix is a special case and I tend to think about her differently to the rest of the cast. The way I think about it; is Phoenix still as much of a threat without the ability to turn into Dark Phoenix? There’s a whole lot of mind games that go into the Phoenix match-up that might effect the way the match plays out and is something we could spend hours discussing, however undernieth all of that the character still has two forms, one ultimately weaker than the other.
Comparing a character like, I don’t know, Dormammu, to Phoenix is a pretty big contrast when we take health into consideration. Dormammu could chip Phoenix out in half the time, cost and effort as the rest of the cast, but could still get mixed up by Wolverine almost as bad. One free mix up by Wolverine is all it takes to kill Phoenix at far less of a cost than the rest of the cast. (Please note I’m not trying to use these examples as backing for an argument, but as quick examples of my thoughts, I realise there’s far more we need to be taking into consideration.) Phoenix should be scared of getting snapped in, because for her the forced 50/50 guessing game is twice as scary against a character like Wolverine due to her health, for both her and the rest of her team. What might take 2 meters and XF on Wesker, might only take 1 meter on Phoenix and that leaves you in a more favourable position afterwards.
The fact that Dark Phoenix changes a persons game plan, doesn’t really change the fact that regular Phoenix has flaws, and that’s what I was trying to point out. While she has fast normals, useful projectiles, great air mobility and insane teleports, it comes at a huge cost and that’s a quick and painful death. Unless you get resurrected, of course.
This is definitely the best tier list I’ve seen yet. Maybe switch task and akuma and move MODOK up to B+ or A and we’ve got ourselves a list.
MODOK is really good actually… just seems like no one wants to learn him. Also his psionic blast assist is actually probably the best beam assist. Untechable knock down and it doesn’t prorate as bad as some of the others, also gives you a bit longer to hit confirm off of… which is important! We have a guy around here that put some serious work into MODOK and i’ve been impressed with what he can do. His big weakness is anti air but if you put him in with Jam session, man…
Him and Dorm and Dante would be the most annoying zoning team ever, plus Modok could help those two’s full screen teleport mixup. I think I want to learn him after evo… just would be a waste of time to put the effort in ATM.
Still doesn’t matter because the cons of using Phoenix are still mostly negated by XF, how she easily makes synergy with other characters on a team and how easy it is to build 5 meters. If Phoenix was that risky to use she wouldn’t be dominating tournaments. You can’t just count Phoenix based on what she is in one form. What she is is based on what happens to the team’s characters and meter. She is a reflection of what the slaves on her team end up doing for her. She can’t exist in the game without the things that her characters and the meter do for her character. They’re a part of her play style. Capcom tried to make Phoenix risky to use but the absolute lack of thought they used in a lot of mechanics of the game makes the risk of using Phoenix very slim when combined with the right characters.
Wolverine/Best Friend/Phoenix is great at showing exactly how much Capcom missed with making sure she is an actual risk to use…
**Phoenix on point wouldn’t have to worry about Dorm chip unless she’s in her DP stage. **Dorm can only take advantage of chipping out regular Phoenix if his team somehow kills off of Phoenix’s slaves before she builds 5 bars. Which even then you have to hope Phoenix already burnt the XF or she can turn that on to negate chip.
Phoenix beats Wolverine (one of the few characters that legit beats him IMO). Going up in the air and tossing homing projectiles there’s no a whole lot he can do. His wave dash isn’t fast enough to really stop her from doing this and all he can really do is jump backwards so she can’t teleport safely. Which is fine because she’ll be fine doing that so Wolverine has no way of hitting her reliably and will have to take chip or force himself into a corner. Luckily Wolverine is either first or second on a team so he either wont have to worry about this matchup because he’s already dead or he can switch himself in for another character that can fight her off better and pop DP to get the match going again.
You say Phoenix should be scared of getting snapped in but ironically she should be the least worried character about getting snapped in. Unlike other characters in the game who always could have to worry about getting snapped in you HAVE to snap in Phoenix before her whole team gets to 5 meters That’s a very short frame of time when she has characters like Wolverine/Dante/Phoenix on the team who can build up meter very quickly. Even some lucky TAC combos build up retarded meter for her. Effectively on average giving you one or 2 real shots to snap her in before you have to fight point Phoenix. If her point characters are still alive you can try to burn more meter to snap in DP and kill her off before she comes out as XF3 but if you dont get that to work you’ve gotta deal with a near inevitable death unless you have all 3 characters ready to chicken block for 20 seconds.
Phoenix also has more tools for dealing with a snap in compared to most of the cast including a flight mode, air dash and the ability to constantly chuck durable fireballs multiple times to safely land should the opponent not get a hit on her (which happens often enough).
Phoenix by herself is still better than half the cast easily and only really loses to like 3 or 4 characters due to their ability to either run through her projectiles with ease (Akuma) or chip her down with XF (Akuma, Storm and Dorm). Other than that she either beats or goes even with everyone else. Healing field with some red health gives her what seems to be more than 1 million health for 10 seconds. Anytime she takes a hit the red health heals back up her red health anytime she takes a hit at a super fast rate making her have insane health as long as she has meter and it stays active.
Put her on a team with 2 good characters that and she makes the team a definite at least A plus tier team that only loses to lucky draws to kill her before the 5 meters or lucky swings at her during XF3 DP or after you somehow burn it out. Put her on a team that can viably burn their XF early to kill off your whole team like Wolvie plus Best Friends and you’ve got what is basically an S tier team for the time being.
Unfortunately the “HUGE” cost of using Phoenix (even before DP) has been destroyed by good players and the dumb shit way Capcom made the game. Comparing Phoenix in a way that doesn’t involve the entire strategy of the team is comparing something that literally doesn’t exist. Akuma beats Phoenix even harder than Dorm does without needing to rely on any XF or shit like that. Still…if you don’t factor in all of Phoenix’s character and attributes on a team you’re comparing something that doesn’t exist. Unless Phoenix dies without 5 bars your scenarios aren’t real.
I’ll agree that it’s interesting to look at specifically how Dorm, Wolvie or Akuma fight point Phoenix but…it’s really not even worth talking about in long strides in comparison to the whole team you must fight.