MvC3 Actual Balance/Potential Tiers Discussion

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
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PLEASE READ PREFACE TO TIER LIST BEFORE PASSING JUDGEMENT.
(EDIT: Added Renegades Tier list. If anyone else sees a tier list that should be added, let me know.)
So, game has been out for a few weeks, a few tourneys have happened, and while we’re only scratching the surface of this game as a community, I think it might be fun to start discussing overall balance, and players opinions of what tiers might be like. It will be pretty cool to see how opinions change over time as well, and to see how accurate the general opinion of the community is when tiers start finally being released (which is probably a year away)

So to start, I’m gonna go on a limb and say that this game seems unbelievably balanced. I don’t think I’ve seen so many characters that seem viable on a competitive level for as long as I’ve been paying attention to competitive gaming. In fact, it seems so balanced, that I really don’t even know where to start with my own tier list.

I feel that I can comfortable say that Amaterasu will be a highly used character, mainly for the cold star assist.
Sentinel, while having the biggest health pool and being one of the hardest hitting characters overall, I feel like won’t be topping out the tier list, as I feel like his metagame is somewhat limited, same thing with Dorm. I have a feeling their meta-game is limited, in comparison to others like Amaterasu, Wesker, or Zero.

However, if players start to seriously abuse the infinites that have been discovered thus far, things could shape up differently from how I’m perceiving all of this. FYI: They are very roughly grouped, as in, 2 characters in mid are the same from what I can determine at this early, early stage.

My Tier List(The less accurate one)

[details=Spoiler]Here is my list as I am currently thinking:
[list]Upper:
[]Wesker
[]Amaterasu
[]Sent.
[]Spencer
[]Taskmaster
[]Deadpool
[]Wolverine
[]Mags
[]Dorm
[]Victor Von Doom
[]Hagger (Most likely for double lariat assist)
Middle
[]Cpt. America (maybe low, but shield infinite is gonna push him up)
[]Akuma
[]Arthur
[]Zero
[]X-23
[]Morrigan
[]She-Hulk
[]Hulk
[]Ryu
[]Iron man
[]V. J.
[]Dante
[]Thor
Low
[]Tron
[]Phoenix
[]Spidey
[]Chris
[]C. Viper
[]Trish
[*]Storm

Characters I could not even begin to try to place:
[]Skrull
[]Hsien-Ko
[]Felicia
[]MODOK
[]Jill
[]Shuma-Gorath
[*]Chun-Li
[/list][/details]

Here’s renegades tier list, something I actually agree with heavily as a possibility as well, and many players are agreeing with on certain dimensions.

Renegade’s Tier List(The MORE accurate one)

[details=Spoiler]In no order within hierarchies
List A: Characters I continuously see dominate no matter the matchup:
Magneto, Amaterasu, Phoenix, Wesker, Dante

List B+: Characters that are really great but have some difficulties (esp against list A)
Storm, Wolvie, Trish, Sent, Akuma. Taskmaster, Zero

List B: Characters that I’ve seen body people in the right hands, but have some matchup problems
She Hulk, Spencer, Dormammu, Morrigan, Chun, X-23

List C: Characters that are pretty good on point, but have some issues (i.e. damage/speed)
Doom, Hulk, Tron, Felicia, Deadpool

List D: Characters that have some serious match-up problems, but can be effective on the right team
Arthur, MODOK, Hsien-Ko, CapAm, Iron Man, Skrull, Spider-Man, Chris

List F: Characters that I continuously see getting bodied
Thor, Haggar, Ryu, Joe, C.Viper

Bonus: Best assists in the game!
1.Tron Flame
2. Sent Drones
3. Hidden Missles
4. Wesker Low Shot
5. Akuma Tatsu
6. Hsien-Ko’s Armored Pendulum
7. Haggar’s Lariat
8. Dante Jam Session
9. Ammy Cold Star
10. Chun Legs

If you made me guess now, I’d say Shuma mystic Ray is #4 behind hidden missiles. Yes, it’s that good.
[/details]

Generally agreed tier thus far

[details=Spoiler]Top:
[A (?) indicates that this seems true with minor discussion, but thorough research/ more tournament play might be needed, or a more obvious agreement reached]

Akuma
Amaterasu
Dante
Magneto
Phoenix
Wesker
Storm (lack of ‘stage time’ if you will, not totally certain, but high at the lowest)

High (generally agreed as upper, but not top):
Taskmaster
C. Viper(?)
Doctor Doom(?)
Dormammu
Sentinel (Top assist, not top overall, seemed to be the general consensus)
She Hulk
Spencer
Zero
Wolverine
Trish (I’m not personally sure, could see as top, but haven’t seen a whole lot of discussion)

Mid:

Chun-Li
Deadpool (same situation as IM)
Haggar (or maybe low?)
Iron Man (high at best I feel like, could fluctuate between here and there)
Tron (Top assist, take this how you want. Probably mid as standalone, probably high taking assist into account)

Low:

Arthur
Captain America
Chris
M.O.D.O.K. (?)
Ryu (?)

To be discussed:
Trish (maybe? one thorough post could put this to rest I feel like)
Felicia
X-23
Super-Skrull
Morrigan
Viewtiful Joe (has been brought up frequently, but I’ve seen nothing in the ways of general agreement)
Spider-Man (interesting combos coming out recently, I feel he should be rediscussed)
Thor
Hsien Ko
Hulk
[/details]

So many of these characters I placed on a practical whim without a lot of knowledge of them, but it’s to the best of my knowledge. MODOK, Hsien-Ko, and Skrull aren’t placed because I feel their meta-games have alot of unexplored depth. I am in no way, shape, or form, stating that any of these are correct. Feel free to comment! And no Flames! :nono:

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/thread

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In all seriousness, game’s been out a month and you’re trying to do tiers? Yeah, no.

Goodbye thread.

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Oh one of these threads…

People are way to trigger happy these days to want to know tier lists.

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Dante should be top tier for sure. He has all sorts of options thanks to his giant movepool, and his combos do big damage and build good meter. He can also use the DHC reset in both directions.

Tron should be somewhere between middle and high. She also gets really big damage and meter with the right assists, and she can use the DHC reset before her Servbot Surprise hits.

Storm should be also be middle or high tier. She has good mobility with dashes and airdashes, and she’s capable both as a zoning and rushdown character. Her Whirlwind can keep up with most other projectiles, and it pushes opponents towards the corner on hit and block. As for her rushdown, she can use her jump-cancellable normals, airdashes, and lightning attacks to keep offensive momentum, and she has really quick overheads thanks to her floating ability. She can start the DHC reset out of any combo or throw.

Phoenix is high or top tier. She has numerous tools for both zoning and rushdown, including a new glitch that allows her to freely mix up lows, highs, and cross-ups. Her Phoenix Rage hyper combo has good invincibility and priority and moves fullscreen, making it risky to attempt to take her out with any ‘random’ hypers.

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What is this glitch? Im out of the loop.

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[media=youtube]amYsSM65CZs[/media]
Use Flight mode, then teleport to the ground. Depending on your timing, you can use either ground or aerial attacks afterwards.

By the way, this discussion is constantly coming up in other threads, so I think this thread ought to be kept open. It may be early, but people are talking about tiers regardless. We might as well have a dedicated thread for it.

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I’m not trying to know tiers, because I recognize that they take at least a year to come out. I just love the discussion regardless, and all I’m really trying to do is start.

I can comfortably say I’m familiar with probably about half the characters, and the ones Dr. Grammar mentioned I am not. And while I completely recognize that Phoenix is an amazing character, her health pool is literally one combo +OTG and hyper to death, and even that would be excessive.

Storm seems meh to me, but I haven’t really experienced a technically proficient one, nor have I watched one being played. Actually that holds for most if not all the characters you mentioned, except Dante.

He’s a strong character, has alot of options, but his health pool is meh, and so is his damage. If you drop a combo, he’s not really worth the time invested in any given match, I feel like. 50 hits for dante is 10 for some other characters. His potential puts him at top, but the execution is probably more high-mid.

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Tier lists always assume top-level knowledge and execution. Difficulty of play never moves characters down the list.

10

You get the most internets.
I lol’d.

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I’m not certain a new thread is necessary for this. Take it to the General Discussion thread.

Also, it’s too early for any sort of tier list, especially with new characters coming.

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I wouldn’t agree with that. In fact, I feel like the definition of a tier list is ranking according to how those characters meta-games are being developed and executed up until the lists creation. Super Smash Melee is an excellent example of that. Jigglypuff was a low tier for 10 years until someone came along and dominated with him. All of the sudden he’s tied for top tier.

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Yesss, but it doesn’t hurt to talk about it! Why is everyone so against this thread? Geeeez. If you don’t like the thread, then don’t post on it! I just enjoy the discussion of this game, and that’s all I’m doing. Besides, if this went into general, it wouldn’t get anywhere. General thread is too… General.

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I really, really hope this thread isn’t closed.

On day 1 of MVC2 we posted up our tier list predictions (I vividly remember saying I thought Storm was the best character) on Dasrik’s old forum, and I’d LOVE to go back and read what all the guys on there were saying.

I really don’t like how all the tier list threads have been aggressively closed straight away, even the thread that documented what 2chan was saying. This stuff is good just for the archives and historical data.

It would be really cool to show hard evidence from the 2000 threads showing just how HARD people were gunning MvC2- all the talk of assists being broken, and even people that liked the game marvelling at how cheap stuff was. By 1 month in Warganic’s site had LOADS of infinites and glitches, for example, and the rock/paper/scissors of what was broken and what broken shit beat other broken shit changed by the day.

So yeah I for one looked forward to looking back in another ten years and saying HA! the week one consensus was that Sentinal was broken and Phoenix was ridiculous!

But nope, all the threads have been closed as apparently the magical “it’s OK to theorise now!” date hasn’t arrived :frowning:

My only contribution to the thread is that I am very, very sure that Thor is bottom tier and that Arthur is also near the bottom. Arthur definitely has his uses though, whereas other than “I like the character/I want to be different/I want to win with low tier” there is no competitive reason to pick Thor above other characters as he has no unique advantages or anything good going for him.

I’d have thought Dante, Phoenix, Sentinal, Amaterasu would be near the top and Joe and Hsien Ko would be near the bottom too.

Other than that it’s all to play for imo. Also it’s going to be one of those games where all but the very worst characters will be viable in some form or other.

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Because this type of thread has been made at least 10 times already. It gets shut down every single time. This belongs in the general discussion thread.

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You can find some of that stuff either using the Wayback machine or checking the SRK thread archives.

Thor is fine, he just takes more work than others. Bottom tier? Don’t think so, really. He’s got a solid mixup game, moves that nullify projectiles while hitting, and can XFC block stun to a command grab for 80-100% damage on most characters while setting them up for another mixup.

Personally, I’d say X-23, Hsien-ko, MODOK, and Skrull are lower on the tier list.

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Well I reject that notion. If people want to talk about it, then why not at least focus all of that here to at least make the mods jobs easier? I stated in the first part of my post that I know its ridiculous to try and actually make a tier list, but it’s just nice to talk about. Besides, no one is really talking balance either, which could give way to match-ups towards character threads.

And for the record, from the posts that are actually trying to submit something of worth, I am learning. To me, that makes a thread worth keeping.

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I suppose I’d agree with that, Gimmicky characters never seem to do to well in fighting games. I do feel like Skrull could really be at least mid tier, I really can’t see him going lower than that for his cheesy-ness.

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What does Wolverine have that X-23 doesn’t that makes her bad?

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More damaging air combos, a faster OTG move, better crossups, better health, better divekick, more air mobility, etc.

Then again, they’re not meant to have the same playstyle, so it’s hard to compare the two.

EDIT: @Shats: You’re making quite a few double posts. Might be better off just editing previous ones.