Yeah the recent showings of Clockwork and Dios X are showing the power of Doom on point with assists that cover his tri jump offense perfectly.
I was wondering…
Have you guys ever discussed about the hitstun duration?
In my opinion, it lasts far too long, allowing people to abuse a lot of things in the game, like Wesker’s normals and Akuma’s Tatsumaki…
Doom needs an assist to keep people locked down long enough to employ his high low and left right mix ups effectively and Clockwork did a great job of showing that. Once you can lock them down Doom’s own ability to pass through advance guard allows him to basically do what he wants with you once he has something to lock you down. He can’t really instant overhead with his L as effectively as Magneto but his super jump ADDF M has a lot of active frames and he has tricks to make it whiff to more ambiguously create high lows. Doom with XF3 in the back is decent IMO also but you want to have at least one or 2 characters killed off first so his 30 percent speed increase and huge damage boost plus sitting on guard cancel Doom Time is enough to kill someone off and throw off their offense. You definitely dont want XF3 Doom fighting against 3 characters unless they’re all shitty characters.
Here’s my list of high tier teams and some solid mid tierish ones. This is gonna be a list of 3 characters like the old MVC2 teams.
**Definite top tier teams:**Encompasses teams where no matter who your opponent kills…unless all 3 are dead they’re always in significant trouble.
Wolverine/Best Friend/Phoenix (Team Japan): Number one team in the game hands down (if your hand is up please put it back down). We have to pray this team doesn’t win Evo (but it will). Shit is maaaaad cheap. It’s not like other Phoenix teams where they’re kinda soft at the start with meter and dont really aim to kill you off immediately outside of resets to continue to play safe and harvest meter. This team is designed to be as cheap as Dark Phoenix from the front and have Dark Phoenix from the back should Wolverine die without burning XF. Your only hope is to snap Phoenix in when you land a hit on Wolvie or XF1 kill Wolvie and his best friend fast enough so that Phoenix has a chance of not getting the 5. If Phoenix lands a combo on you though that’s all she needs for the 5 and then you gotta face the final boss. Wolverine in general has a lot of auto pilot advantages over a lot of the other cast and Sentinel/Akuma are still solid characters in their own right even without a great assist and them dying still harvests some meter for the red head. There’s probably a little discrepancy between who’s better in the middle between Akuma and Sentinel but generally either one brings a uniquely cheap assist to the table for Wolvie and that’s about all he needs. Daigo has shown that Dante could easily end up being one of Wolvie’s best friends also.
Dante/Tron or Haggar/Phoenix (Team Cheap Pho):[color=red]** **[color=black]Definitely looking to be number 2 team as far as just overall strength in my eyes. Definitely see this team making top 8 at Evo. Dante’s zoning game even without another projectile assist is rather strong and can contend even against other teams that have a character that can zone with projectile assist. If he needs to up the ante in the fireball war he can turn on Devil Trigger and get access to the most durable, fastest beam in the game that can’t be negated by pushblock even without an assist. Once Dante builds 2 meters to bring himself to 3 meters or more (which is easy as fuck to do with a few real good hours spent in training mode or if you just have good execution period) it’s rather safe if he needs to spare building meter to get a 15 percent damage increase and be the absolute power in a firefight for 10 seconds while still having access to a super fast teleport, stupid long range normals and a double sided invincible airborne overhead. The only time you need to worry about activating DT more than once or at all is against another Phoenix team where you’re both going to be in the race for the 5.
Which since Dante can win his own firefights the only other thing he has to worry about is people getting in because he will get frame trapped to death if he’s gotten in on due to having 8 frame L normals. Which is fine because Tron or Haggar is gonna let you block with your face and set up your own frame traps since they will stop advance guards from the opponent also. A character who can already fully protect themselves from the mid range to have an assist to just throw out to stop close range shit…way too good. Plus if Dante dies and one of these characters has to come out and fight…oh well. They’re going to get in what they can and their stupid ass 1.2 million health is going to be nothing but a Thanksgiving feast for the red head even if they dont land one hit first.
Someone mentioned that Sentinel/Haggar is good but Dante/Haggar is completely better because Dante is a completely better version of Sentinel. Completely. Without Sent drones Dante almost puts Sentinel off the radar now. He’s too ridiculous. Those Sent drones are a beast assist though.
Lastly in technical terms this team COULD lose if someone ends up killing both Dante and Phoenix but the odds of that happening the way I see it are pretty tough. You would have to go about burning your XF early on Dante with Wolverine (for instance) IF you land a hit on Dante and Dante can very well end up being the guy that lands the hit on you. Especially with Tron/Haggar assist protecting his hit boxes that’s enough to not see Wolverine get in much without some pray mashing of c.L. Then you have to also worry about whether or not Dante got the 3 meters. If Dante already built the 3 plus meters you have literally like one shot to XF burn kill Dante and land a hit on Tron/Haggar and snap the red head in for the kill or the final boss is imminent. The only way to really chip a dent in this team is to land the first hit on Dante and XF kill him off or DHC glitch him so he doesn’t build 2 freaking meters without TAC. Then try to hit Haggar and snap in Phoenix when they are low on meter before the 5. If you get successful mix up on Phoenix you’ll probably win. If not Tron/Haggar are just going to be swinging around pipe and H spin looking for random hits to build meter with and hitting them forces you to build heavy meter for Phoenix as well before you can do another snap. If you let Phoenix get too close to the 5 forget without killing her forget it.
**This team doesn’t really outright look to kill you from the beginning like the Tokido Phoenix team but actually landing clean, non traded hits without getting hit and comboed yourself is a ridiculous order that only the top tiers have a real shot at. **
Dante/Magneto/Wesker (Team Josh Wong/Pick a Top Tier):** ****Pretty much the strongest non Phoenix team. This team or something similar with Wesker in the back is very capable of top 8 at Evo. If you dont like Wolverine or Phoenix this is the ideal team to get top 8 at Evo with in my eyes. **The main thing about this team is that this team basically has nothing to lose and all to win unless they’re fighting the other 2 teams above. The ideal set up of a top tier team sans Phoenix. Dante in front who can deal with any matchup period with relative ease especially with Magneto’s disruptah assist backing him up. Can play the firefight game, turn on DT to improve the firefight game and his damage output, can close the gap anytime with teleport, has hit boxes and invincible hammer to blow up Wolvie and his best friend, builds 2 meters without an assist…just the Dante/Magneto set up alone is enough to crush ANY team.
Yet it’s still great even if somehow Dante dies. Magneto with Wesker assist is still a great threat because Magneto gets access to the safest OTG/low hitting assist in the game. Giving his high low game even stronger merit with unblockable setups and a bit of block stun to help pass through advance guard. Magneto can do his own zoning and has better mobility/speed than anybody else in the cast sans maybe Storm who is basically a mid tier Magneto with a slight scare factor with hail chip. This setup also has access to DHC glitch so Magneto can basically choose how he wants to kill you once he hits you. Pretty much to the point where it’s hard to think about and he might end up dropping his combo due to the vast variety of ways he could end you. Plus he has one of the best reset games in the game so he can easily throw around and not burn the meter and then air throw or counter hit reset you into something else to build up more meter and then kill you.
Then even if Magneto dies you have access to what is basically the best level 3 XF character in the game outside of DP herself. You become 30 percent faster…100 percent stronger, have an unseeable teleport 4 way mix up, boosts on some of the best normals the game has to offer, a full screen projectile based infinite against airborne opponents, access to a one frame command grab that you can kara for extra range that becomes death touch in XF3, pretty much unable to be zoned out due to all of those options and has rather solid options should he have fight Phoenix/Dark Phoenix including a projectile counter that can end DP or probably the best character in the game for running away from regular Phoenix if enough time was brought down on the clock (around 20 to 30 second rangeish).
I** could have also gotten into other pretty obvious top tier teams like Wesker/Best Friend/Phoenix or Wolverine/Best Friend/Akuma but the 3 teams i listed impress me the most of the obvious high tier teams. Those 3 teams are uniquely strong in a way that a lot of people will have trouble dealing with come Evo. Any team with Wolvie in the front or Wesker in the end with a follow up of solid characters and assists generally has a high chance of winning Evo.**
Mid tier/strong promise teams
**Wesker/Ryu/Ammy (Team Gods + Ordinary Man): **** ****This team doesn’t exactly encompass all top tier characters/assists but it’s the team of the famed Christ Geesus. This team does a little bit of everything though. ** The team works where he can kinda switch it up between Wesker or Ammy in the front depending on what he wants to do or what matchups come about. Wesker on point is a great battery for Ryu coming in blowing people up with the XF2 overheads and once Ryu is on the screen with meter, dont call your assists unless you dont mind not having them anymore. Ryu’s beam is not as instant on the start up as Akuma’s but to suffice his ground super is completely safe on block unlike Akuma’s where he will die and he can angle his air super anyway he wants allowing for great zoning and assist killing with meter. It’s a team full of characters that are very capable without assists (Wesker/Ammy) or great at shutting down assists (Ammy/Ryu) and it meshes in a unique way compared to other teams. Not to mention that Chris just being a great player really strengthens the team visually overall.
Dante/X23/Tron, Doom or other strong assist character in the back (Team Guilty Gear):
** ****This team is kinda like a weaker XF1 Wolvie that with the right amount of meter can do something pretty much even cheaper and more guaranteed than XF1 Wolvie. **The point of this team is basically to build 2 meters with Dante and kill off the first character if possible without spending 2 meters and putting the opponent in the corner. Once you have the opponent in the corner and the 3 meters when they die you tag in X23 and jam session them out of the air with dirt nap and then activate XF1 Wolvie style and blow up the second character. Once that happens you still have some XF1 left against the 3rd and can choose to either finish them off with a welcome mix up into possible DHC glitch if you build enough meter or try to force them to burn an early XF3 and lame it out. The team really fleshes out X23 if she has to fight on point with a strong assist that really helps her ability to get in and land damage. X23 has trouble with other protective assists like Haggar/Tron but if you play lame and look for situations to blow up a bad call it’s definitely possible to get around. X23 has a lot of potential with advanced tools that pretty much no one is using and is a very solid XF2 character. If she dies and you still have XF at least you got the assist in the back with XF to hopefully clean off whatever is left and not have to fight 3 people.
Generally Wolverine/Dante or Wolverine plus any of his other best friends can do what this team does better with less meter but if this team harvests the right amount of meter it’s definitely a big threat to the entire opponent’s team.
Magneto/Zero/Akuma** (Team projectile hit boxes):**** **** ****Ryry’s famed team that has a lot of synergy and general ability to do something against everybody in the cast. Magneto can easily do his 10 moar years shit and DHC glitch into Zero for big kills on anybody in the cast. Which then puts Zero on point and Zero on point with 2 assists is a serious serious threat. Has normals that you can not poke or anti air or anything unless you somehow counter hit them before their start up or whiff punish them. Once they are out they are molten hot lava for normals that will burn through any counter hit attempt and turn into more than 1 million damage with Zero’s lightning loop. Which builds plenty of meter also. Zero with 2 assists especially or even one assist is a legit threat even with little to no meter because of the meter he will build by the team he turns on sogenmu for the lightning loop. Charged buster shot makes it so even if you are in range to approach him you can’t attack him or run the risk of being counter hit charged shot and hard knocked down for the OTG. Guy is literally fool proof IMO outside of the person playing him. Akuma in the back can deal with any Phoenix shenanigans and the whole team has great potential for snap in mix ups with either character plus Akuma assist to get rid of the red head early. ** Only reason I didn’t put this team in high tier is because a some people still feel that Zero is only top tier in theory but I’ll let it rock in the strong potential tier until it becomes more obvious.[/color][/color]
DevilJin, I’d really like to see your Doom in action. Regardless of how great or not great it is, just to see the stuff you talk about put into practice would be sweet. I didnt see WNF last night but it sounds liek Clock’s Doom put on a show.
Lvl 3 xfc Doom Time is pretty awsome the first 200 times you see it.
Yeah, sen that and done that. Im refering more to the sj M tri jumps and all
Yeah it’s a lot of stuff I’m still trying to put together since I literally picked up Dante like 2 or 3 weeks ago at most and in general I’m still trying to get used to what exactly works and what can get me in trouble so I can just go into a tournament and do what I need to do. Dante gives me the hit box coverage I need but I still need to figure out the best ways to approach with X23 and Doom sans Dante incase something happens. Hopefully by next week I’ll have it figured out enough where I’ll make top 5 at the local and show some vids. In this game making one mistake is like making 4 mistakes in other fighting games so it’s something I’ll just have to teach myself to get around with a not exactly top tier team.
Dante/XX/Haggar is pretty much one of the cheapest non phx teams in the game. Go watch WNF, and imagine that whenever Richard’s haggar assist hit, a character died. You get this team.
Phoenix teams are gonna dominate evo, not because phoenix is OP or anything, but because you can slap 2 self sufficient duos on a phoenix team, have them do their thing, and if that fucks up, you got the best insurance in the back. You can see that already being where the meta is headed with RIchard N, Viscant, Tokido. People are gonna have a hard time deciding what to do when they get a hit.
It’s gonna be like:
Uh, what do I do? If I snap her and my mix up fails, I lost one meter and an opportunity to get rid of Wesker/Wolverine/insert character. If I kill insert character, i’m gonna have to deal with Dark Crutch. Even if my mixup works, I still have to deal with XF3 Wesker/Best Friends/Insert whatever.
Then you’re gonna see teams which get 2-3 bars from any hit, burn meter to kill your characters and still make sure phoenix comes out.
I agree on these, though Dante/Tron or Haggar/Phoenix goes against the way you labeled top tier teams. If Dante and Phoenix die, Tron or Haggar typically don’t put up much of a fight afterwards. It’s also a relatively newer team that hasn’t been fully vetted yet.
I’d also add **Wolverine/X/Best Friend **to that lineup as well. I still think Wolverine is incredibly deadly even without the threat of Phoenix in the back. This would be like Justin Wong, Floe and PR Balrog’s teams.
Wesker/Best Friend/Phoenix is a very similar team to Wolverine/Best Friend/Phoenix, just a little worse and different. Maybe it falls in the mid-tier category though, not sure yet.
Team Josh Wong just throws a bunch of great characters together. You could probably throw Ammy in one of those spots and be fine too. Or you could try out stuff like Trish and still be mid-tier or better (like Jago’s team).
I think this goes in with the Combofiend and Clockwork teams of “Good players doing whatever-the-fuck-ever”. Ryu hasn’t worked for anyone else, and Wesker and Ammy are just good characters. I think Chris G wins because he’s a great player that’s doing the most with his team that he can. I don’t think the team specifically does him a lot of favors though.
It seems like a lot of teams fall into this middle category as long as they aren’t running multiple bad characters or losing automatically to Phoenix teams at character select.
what do you guys think of the dante/felicia combo? not saying its top tier but supposedly felicia buckler assist has good priority. plus zone with dante, call out buckler ADF H is an unblockable setup with MASSIVE range, not to mention abilty to crossup and be used in teleport mixups as well… the thing is that unlike other low assists, felicias has remarkable range combined with remarkable speed on the first mid hit. felicia can blow shit up with lvl3 XF as well.
not saying its messing with dark phoenix, but it looks good on paper. a team i am looking at is morrigan dante felicia. maybe maybe not.
oh and some folks may have missed this:
dat hulk doing dhc glitch (never saw him do that)
dat tron/she-hulk reset
and dat spencer sniping fools.
NICE, just watch the entire 15 minutes… cant remember where all the dope stuff was, its all really good play executionally speaking.
ending MODOK soundbite is claasic.
-dime
Josh Wong and Damian play Dante/Felicia a lot, it’s a really dirty team. I think until someone gets godlike with Felicia on point she just gets outclassed by Wesker and Deadpool, she has a fuckton of potential though.
Captain America with Felicia assist is strong enough as it is because it compliments his backflip game really nicely and gives ambiguous mix ups that you can’t do so much with other assists. With a character like Dante you of course get let it rip unblockables after air dash H or teleport.
@ KJunk….what you’re saying about the Dante/Tron Haggar/Phoenix team is technically true but the odds of that happening are very rare if you play Dante with Tron Haggar assist well. The only thing i remember being harder to hit on point than Zero with an assist was Dante with an assist and it’s not surprising that shit is running tourneys now. Actually landing hits on that shit is the tallest of orders. Even taller than Wolverine running around with an assist. The chances of the opponent being able to kill off both Dante and Phoenix before the 5 is not something that is regularly going to happen just by odds of what the team is capable of. If Dante hits you he builds 2 plus meters. Hits you again and Dark Phoenix is imminent and you most likely have lost a character.
With the protection of Tron/Haggar the chances you’ll get to actually land hits on this team are extremely limited. With the limitless possibilities of Dante and his own natural strengths against other problem characters like Wolverine, plus the protection of Haggar and Phoenix in the back I don’t see this team doing anything but getting stronger. Unless people find something that completely blows up Tron/Haggar assist really soon this is going to stay. I would say your best bet to counter this immediately is to play characters that can close the gap quickly on Dante and air throw or command grab him to blow him up out of the assist mash. Which Fanatiq showed to a strong degree in his money match vs. Richard Nguyen after WNF.
About Chris G’s team…I think it’s more so no one else has even really tried Ryu not so much that he’s a terrible character. I know there was another guy that was using Captain America, Ryu someone else at WNF and was placing top 5. The main scare factor about characters like Captain and Ryu is that you can’t have assists on screen period while they’re zoning the mid range or you can lose those assists very easily. Which is why I think characters like Ryu and Captain should be considered to fight off durp assists.
Just my opinion by I feel like team Josh Wong is just a case of stacking top tiers proving to be somewhat effective. What he was doing with Magnetos beam you can with almost any forward moving offensive assist, because Dantes stinger always gets there first to clear shit on front of you before the assist. So really, there was no specific advantage to that duo. I think Taskmaster is a better Partner for Magneto and Haggar a better partner for Dante.
One day, people will realize Someone/Ammy/Morrigan is the best
One day…
Well one of the reasons I specifically put that team up is because Josh Wong’s team would probably be the scariest shit in the game right now if Phoenix wasn’t in the game. Dante in the front to blow up Wolverine and 2 other characters that can definitely at least fight him compared to the other cast. The main thing about this team is that it’s the strongest team that’s the least reliant on assists to be effective. When Dante is on screen you’ve got problems even if he doesn’t have an assist. Not so much as when he does but it’s still a pretty big problem just by virtue of the character. Magneto…we’ve all seen Magneto run through teams with even little use of his assists. Wesker…assists just help him be more crazy than he already is.
The other teams have characters that are good as assists but if those characters have to fight on point (like Taskmaster) they’re not exactly the scariest shit in the world yet even with an assist. When Taskmaster or Haggar are on Phoenix teams they get the luxury of having Phoenix back them up for being decent to shitty on point. Once you get Haggar or Task out on non Phoenix team you know you’re pretty set unless they were second and have someone backing them up. Which even then you’re still far more set than Magneto or Wesker with assist or Wesker with XF3.
Sounds like it’ll be a nice day. There’s a local guy in my area that runs X23/Morrigan/Ammy or something like that as a side team and it does seem promising.
Well… Taksmaster is still an easy top 10 point character. His arrows help Wesker and Mags just way better than weasel shot ever could. Also, I don’t buy Dante beating Wolverine consistently without Doom Rocks/ Tron / Haggar. East coast is known for lacking strong Wolverines, and there have been no Dante victories over Wolverine in ANY major. Only Trish can fight Wolverine without assists because she doesn’t need to take risks vs him.
May be but in general Dante, Trish, Zero and Phoenix pretty much seem to be the best in the game for fighting Wolverine whether it comes to being with or without an assist and Dante + Tron/Haggar like you said is very capable of taking on the Canadian. With plenty more to figure out about Dante there’s definitely a lot of room for Dante to build even more tools to deal with Wolvie with or without assist.
Dante beats Wolverine slightly IMO assuming he lives through the opening of the match, his tools for dealing with Wolverine’s attempts to move forward are pretty exceptional with options to blow up reckless Akuma assists as well. Crystal and Jam session assists happens to be incredibly useful against Wolverine when spaced correctly.
However Trish and Viper are dramatically better in that match up since the way the match starts is less terrible for them, and their tools are less risky to use against Wolverine especially when supported by certain solid assists.
I’ve also been told by various people that MODOK blows up Wolverine but I need to see and play that match up more to see if I agree or disagree with that.
What do people think of the Magneto Dante match up? Whos favor is it in?
id actually say its even tbh
dante cant deal with rush down at all but mag has to be carefull about going nuts