i think Wolvie/Ammy/Phoenix or Wolvie/Mag/Phoenix is better just because Dante without assist is meh while Magneto and Ammy are fine without assist Trish and Taskmaster also come to mind
Dante without assists is a fucking beast in his own right. He can self assist himself with stuff>Devil Trigger and gets 50/50’s on the cast with Million Carats>Devil Trigger/XF.
Also has one of the highest damage outputs in the game as well as chip potential half the cast can’t do anything about.
Except that Magento and Ammys assists are a joke in comparison to jam session in terms of what they offer Wolverine. Dante is the best balance of top tier self sufficient character with godlike assist. Someone described him correctly as a better Sentinal basically.
But, unless it’s a full team Hyper, the most you can have on the screen at a time is 2 out of three people from your team, so discussing how 2 of those 3 people work together at that time is important enough to discuss it as a facet of your overall gameplan.
And you can classify single characters and full squads as those 3(4) archetypes.
Discussing the potency of each point/assist is actually pretty smart since we only seem to be talking about 2 characters at a time, i.e. Wesker + PBeam = weeeee! or Wolv + Drones = Woooooooo!
Those neogaf posts are very nice.
One thing though… is it possible that the Wolver-wagoning, that was brought on by such a bold declaration, could have been Jwongs attempt to push the community to find more anti-wolverine tech.
Could he have had the forethought to use band-wagoners to advance anti-tech within the ranks of the malcontents?
Oooh, I’ve got some reading to do! Akuma31’s team thread and this metagame analysis! And for those of us who DO believe team/archetype/duo analysis is where tier discussion should (or at least COULD) be headed, please do speak your collective minds! DevilJin, you said you’ve felt that’s where the discussion should be headed long ago, I’d like to hear your thoughts on the state of archetypes (and yes, we know Wolve in front, Phx in the back is very good hehe). I’m at work so it’ll take me some time to read all that, but I’ll likely post some reaction afterwards. As if anyone gives a shit what I have to say. LOL
That’s why I included the variable part and listed who seemed like good insertion characters. My post did the exact opposite of imply you can slot in any old character. Duos are absolutely critical and, while yes, all teams are 3-character units, specific duos work as tools that are certainly worthy of analysis. And in many cases, a 3rd character isn’t needed to discuss said duos. Wolverine Akuma is the easiest example. You could write 5 pages of strats on them without even acknowleging there’s a 3rd character. And lastly, if you feel it’s better to talk of archetypes in terms of fleshed out 3-man teams, then do that! 
And **BINGO **was his name-o
Very interesting read. I remember hearing that Justin said he prefers high health characters to low health ones because it gives you longer to figure out the opponent and more mistakes possible to make. I think when coupled with low execution, this is proving to be true in Marvel as well.
You also have to think about options vs health. Why does Wesker have incredibly higher health than say… Viper, when he has arguably better mixups, more mobility, better pokes, etc etc? It seems like Capcom did the health based more on who the characters were than what they actually did in the games.
OF COURSE. its pretty obvious that he wants anti wolvie tech to come around.
also @thisguilekillya:
i completely agree that the game is about duos right now…we should definitely be talking about them… 3 character teams will eventually be born out of the resultant duo discussions and placings…like that neogaf guys post about wolvie+phoenix being great duo, but dante eventually rounding out that team into maybe the best one in the game, etc etc
-dime
Those were good posts, and I largely agree with the conclusions he came to.
I didn’t agree with his point of the DHC glitch as ‘a relic’ though. He goes on to say that character health is important because several of the main point characters (Wolverine, Wesker, She-Hulk) have high health. Those two things seem counter to one another because teams that are capable of DHC glitching at the beginning of the match effectively reduce the health advantage of those characters. And it just so happens many of the best characters can DHC glitch easily.
I agree that most good teams can kill the Under 900K Club typically in one combo using 2 supers without needing the DHC glitch. Combofiend’s She-Hulk to Taskmaster DHC is a good example of this. Even Trish can kill someone with 800K health using 2 supers, and her damage is typically considered to be low.
But if you want to kill Wesker or She-Hulk with 1 combo from match start, you really need to either blow X-Factor or DHC Glitch, or hit execution only seen in training mode or casuals.
Competitive play may not reflect it yet due to tournament nerves/execution, but one-hit kills are where the game should be if it isn’t already. The only teams that should be considering resets or needing multiple combos are Phoenix teams building meter. Everyone else should be blowing meter or X-Factor where appropriate. If you don’t one-hit kill, I’m pretty sure you’re missing opportunities.
You my friend, found a very good article. By very good, I mean this should be published into a handbook and be sold for money. That’s how intriguing it was to read it.
Yeah DHC glitch although definitely a step down in power from XF1 Wolvie kills is still sifnificant because it allows you to save sex factor and kill off wesker and if you have a really good dhc glitch combo up to the likes of she hulk, haggar and thor. It’s another reason why I stand by my point that health is going to matter less and less. The characters that die in one combo are the ones that can kill you in one combo without XF or DHC glitch (Zero) or are characters that are extremely hard to land clean hits on reliably due to their hit box/movement (Ammy, Magneto).
When it comes to resetting and doing more than one combo it will pretty much be required at high level play to learn how to use more than one combo/set up to kill somebody. In every other fighting game that’s existed including Marvel 2 you needed to make more than one right decision to win a match. Why should it be any different just because of a game with high damage? You could kill people in one combo easily in Super Turbo…doesn’t mean that’s what you should or will always end up doing. The X Factor system has people afraid of not doing anything that doesn’t drain a character’s entire health in one combo and against some characters that you literally can’t poke like Zero or have a hard time doing so effectively like Wolverine…yeah it’s probably a good idea to just blow everything and get them out of there since they’re usually in the front any way. Though towards the second and 3rd characters in the matches you’ll need to learn how to actually play fighting games and hit people with tech traps and resets to augment your damage and build more meter to kill them off. ** There’s a difference between dropping a combo and putting the opponent in a strong reset to build meter while still killing them off.**
Being able to kill an opponent off without burning 2 and 3 meters on DHC gives you meter to DHC or level 3 the next character with more opportunity. Especially now that early XF burn to kill off characters is important it’s going to be more important than ever to be strong with your resets and tech traps instead of burning your meters and XF all the time everytime you hit somebody and kill off resources to win later. You dont wanna go to Evo being the guy that gets their first two characters blown up and relies on a stupid character in the back to come back. This is team game. Fully loaded teams with or without XF will beat your gamble XF3 Wesker/Sent whatever. Unless it’s DP (who people are going to have mad snap back setups for by Evo) you’re gambling way too hard and not actually learning to play the game. It’s going to be really important by Evo to have strong XF1 and 2 gameplans over having nothing but yourself getting all PCP’d out with one last character going out in flames. When you get to the point where the XF’s are burned out then you actually have to be good at the game or you will get outplayed.
Generally though the article hit a lot of good points and shows that J.Wong is usually quick to name characters as number 1. Like how he pointed out Sentinel as number 1 even though he was constantly getting beat up even during the one point three days. Wolverine on the other hand is a character he’s declaring as number 1 that’s actually doing shit in tournaments that reflects a number one character. Like winning majors and not getting hard countered by arguable mid tiers without an assist (She Hulk).
I’m glad to see you agree. Check out my post from yesterday about it, I’d love to hear your insight on anything I may have missed (which is plenty, as I knew it wouldnt be close to comprehensive). I want to see discussion on it, not because “hey everybody, talk about MY post!” but because it feels EXTREMELY relevant to the current meta and I want as much info on it as possible. I just wanted to provide a jumping off point for the more knowlegable folks to expound upon.
Many DHC glitch combos can wind up meter neutral or positive, which means you’re still ready to one-hit kill the next character too.
Let’s say your options are
[LIST=1]
[]Finish your combo which uses some meter, and it kills the character
[]Or drop your combo for a reset. Reconnect and it kills the character with lots of meter gained. Fail to reset and they’re free
[/LIST]
If your reason for conserving meter on your first opportunity is to make your next opportunity ***an easier combo***by being able to blow meter like candy? I think that’s the wrong approach. You may wind up with some extra meter and a Wesker that hits and kills you, and then kills your next character on entry, and so on.
By going for the reset there, you’ve giving them an out for very little benefit to yourself. Yeah, the reset is in your favor… but the combo (barring your execution) was guaranteed. And your execution could just as easily slip on a reset too, so I don’t think that’s a fair argument, especially with DHC glitch combos which are usually easy compared to the technical Zero/Viper/Dante/Taskmaster stuff.
That’s why I think really only Phoenix teams should be concerned with resets, unless you’re in a position where you don’t have meter to kill the character anyway. Maybe resets make sense in situations where the character’s not really a threat anyway (Haggar) and you want to build up meter for the next character so you can do something fun (like a Dirt Nap on entry).
Would you reset Wolverine when you could just spend 2 bars (maybe build most of it back in the process) and kill him? He’s a threat - of course you wouldn’t. I’m saying DHC glitch combos are so cheap in terms of cost that you can afford to extend that same “i’m killing you now” respect to other characters too.
Well that’s the thing. Danger characters like Wolvie are very rarely not in the front. You definitely wanna blow meter at the front because that’s what the game is about. Blowing meter at the front to kill off a bit of the momentum from your opponent’s team guaranteed while you still have 3 characters to tough it out with. I’m talking more later in the match when the XF’s are burned and you wont always necessarily have the meter or bnbs in general to kill someone depending on your character. Characters like Wesker breathe on resets and tech traps. Without level 3 his bnbs aren’t building you the damage to kill people once XF’s are gone. You’re actually going to have to know how to play fighting games and make more than one good decision at that point. Which is why players like Viscant are so far ahead of the game.
He KNOWS he has strong sets ups that WILL kill you without having to burn meter. He also has the early XF burn stuff to kill off characters like Wolverine who are also looking to burn the XF early. Though once that XF burns you got have actual fighting game tactics to survive. Relying on meter and bnbs alone wont take you through.
Wolverine post XF1 THRIVES on resets and non meter burn combos to mix ups. Build up that meter for the level 3 by getting people again and again with shit that’s extremely hard to block and very advantageous for Wolverine to hit them again. Wolveirne can’t kill people post XF1 from full health without a reset, post non meter burn combo mix up or level 3. Luckily for Wolverine it’s piss easy to put someone in a situation where they are like very likely to get hit again with very little they can actually do about it. That says something when one of the biggest powers in the game is based on putting you in inescapable post combo situations. ** The first time Wolverine hits you is the last time he needs to hit you whether he spends meter or not. That’s what makes him so strong. Not spending the meter and simply putting the opponent in another situation where they can’t escape and hitting them will build the meter you need to one shot the next one coming in and finish the match. **
Getting hit by Wolverine is just not good period no matter what happens after. That’s why he’s tops. The first time you get hit it’s just a circle of shit. You dont even wanna get hit by Wolverine even because of how stupid he is after his combo is done which is practically more stupid than when he does kill you in one combo. In general in this game at higher level play you want to protect yourself with those hit boxes and movement because once you get hit you either die or have to deal with bullass shit that you will most likely also get hit by and then die. Which will harvest meter to blow up the next character.
Yeesh, my NoScript just blocked off the 10 or so posts, including those replies…
@Dime: was that agreeance about my anti-wolv tech or smart-assery?
I don’t use his team, I still use She-Hulk/Task/Tron because I’m not ready to drop Tron yet. Spencer is an awful anchor though, not disagreeing. I’m actually learning Doom because I think he’d be good on the team.
What makes spencer an awful anchor? I’m out of the loop with that character.
guys I have now picked my team that I want to use at Evo, no I am not thinking to go far BUT I want to do the best I can
its wolverine, deadpool and Dante, so what order should they do in and also I picked Dante’s crystal, wolverines berserk slash and deadpools katarama assists
Thanks
No chip capability, no zoning, bad mixups without an assist, sub-par mobility (can be airthrown easily out of ziplines if they aren’t covered by an assist), can be lamed out easily and his damage potential without assists is a fraction what he can do with them. Finally, you’re wasting the ability to use the DHC glitch.
He should be played in the first or second slot (preferably first imo).
His only real threat is Bionic Lancer into X-factor, but that’s honestly overrated unless you’re catching an assist.
Wrong thread for this but replace Crystal with Jam Session, it’s a lot better for wolverine’s mixups and hit confirms and better for zoning with deadpool. Crystal is easily dante’s worst assist and you already have an OTG assist with Katanarama.