MvC3 Actual Balance/Potential Tiers Discussion

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
741

Wavedash makes a lot of characters uncharacteristically fast, not just Sent.

We can look at the long list of pros and the short list of cons. Yeah, Sent looked really fucking good on paper.

And then in practice, in real matches, a different tale was told.

Sent’s size was such a strong con, made him so easy to keep out and hit with instant overheads that the entire cast (I think) had on him, combos specific to him since he could be hit more that did more damage
slow ass normals where Sent’s strategy for damage was to hope you don’t block or push a button when he presses 5M or 2M
poor or nonexistant mixup
Spit (5H or 2H) was mediocre at best.

Sent is a scrub killer, like Blanka. If you didn’t like to block and keep pressing buttons and hold forward, Sent crushed you.

The change is going to really hurt his usefulness as an assist and characters who depended on it, thus making those characters worse.

Any of his bad matchups he already lost, he’s going to die faster. He has even less of chance in these fights now since he now has 2 chances to hope 2M hits instead of 3 or 4.
Any match where he just ate a lot chip working his way in because his spit was ineffective, has gotten worse.

This change means he’s just going to lose losing fights faster and the fights he barely had a chance in are now loses.

They change his health to quell the complaints of the online scrub where blocking is foreign, super armor is super effective in lag and “you only deserve that damage if you press a lot of buttons” mentality exists. High and mid level play, Sent was used mostly for an assist and was showing up less and less each tournament. There were few people playing Sent out the 3rd slot, he was just ineffective (at this point in time) for the most part on screen unless he had XF3.

Sent’s place at the top is just going to be taken by another character, but I guess this is fine (for now) as long as it isn’t Sent and that character has to push a lot of buttons to do a lot of damage, right?

They should’ve nerfed XF3, not Sentinel. That’s what made Sent a pain in the ass in the 3rd slot, not the invincible air hyper, not the super armor, it was how XF3 gives him and pretty much every character in the game 1 touch kills.

This patch seems to have added mid match pauses, not slowdowns, actually pauses offline. This patch was worthless through and through, fixed nothing that was a real problem like the online or XF.

742

I think Mr. X’s post neatly encapsulates why his usefulness on point even pre-patch is very much debatable. IMO Pre-patch Sentinel isn’t top 5 and post-patch Sentinel might not even be top 10. His tool set is easy to work around. My thoughts:

  1. OTG rocket punch is only used in combos
  2. if you get hit raw by his air super then you’re in the derp tier of player
  3. 2 hypers is pretty good but he’s hardly the only character that can do this
  4. damage output =/= good. Damage only matters if it’s also easy to land and Sentinels list of moves to look out for counts 3 or 4
  5. I’ve never seen his mobility be an issue. Maybe I’m wrong on this but I’ve definitely seen characters run away from lvl. 3 XF Sent very effectively.

The way it should be according to whom?

743

The Zeros you play need to step their combo game up.

[media=youtube]Iql4vBgR0T8[/media]

Zero has been capable of 800k+ midscreen on one meter no XFactor since the first week of the game. Marn doesn’t do optimal combos but I’m not going to get into that because the last time I called him out on it he got salty with me about how he doesn’t spend time in training mode. What he does works for him and that’s fine, but all the other Zeros out there who aren’t placing in tourneys (which is a fucking lot of them) could use whatever help they can get.

744

I agree the problem was xf and not him but Sentinel is still very good, drones are the same and so is level 3 xfactor.

745

We need OTG assist for Zero to do 800k though. For example with Wolv you can do magic series launch, MMH drill, dive kick, H, relaunch mmh drill fatal claw for about the same. Or Sent’s frying pan into unfly (or some would call it the swag combos) rocket punch hyper sent force.

No assist involve in those two examples just the character that’s on point by himself.

Marn does do a pretty damn good job if you ask me. How many Zero you sill out there doing the best shadow combos? Hell we don’t even know what the best shadow combos are yet still lot to be discover. Justin has been running over people with his Zero team and he only does 1 loop 90% of the time.

Zero is just a lot more work if you want the optimal damage. I agree with you that most of us Zero players aren’t doing the best combos, but at the same time our long ass combos aren’t as easy as let say Tron’s long ass combo (Took me an hour to learn her long ass shit consistently, and still can’t do all of Zero’s stuff. Just way too many possibilities). So I don’t think you can hate on Marn for not doing the most “optimal” combo.

746

I can get 600k+ going corner to corner without even using charge shots and just using a ranged assist (Aim Master) relaunch and then either Jam Session or Arrow Kick to set up the Rekkoha. There’s tons of ways to get over 600k with Zero, but, yes, you are probably going to need Sougenmu, X-Factor, charge shots, or an assist for them, and if you’re down to just Zero with no meter to burn and no X-Factor, you probably messed up pretty badly somewhere else along the way.

EDIT: Zero doesn’t need an OTG assist. He OTGs with Sentsuizan. He needs an assist to hold the opponent in place long enough after the OTG to be able to relaunch.

747

Sentinel matchups before the apocalypse:

bad matchups:
Dark Phoenix

6-4 to 5-5 matchups (Sentinel has to work slightly harder, also the assists variable)
Dog
Wolverine

4-6 to 5-5 matchups (characters that does really well vs Sentinel, doesnt necessarily have to beat him)
Magneto
Trish
Chris
Dormammu
Wesker
Dante
X-23
Deadpool
Akuma
Taskmaster
Spencer

After the apocalypse (1.02 patch), all these characters will have an advantage on him.

I can’t comment on the other characters like Modok, She-Hulk, Viper, Arthur. They seem to do well vs him but i havent have any experience vs those characters yet. we’ll never know.

748

Did you even watch the video? Jam Session is not an OTG assist. Zero has his own OTG, and you can use any assist with a long-lasting hitbox (beams are great) to continue the combo.

Like I said Marn’s doing just fine for himself (and Justin too obviously), but he’s doing that despite not using the best combos available, not because he doesn’t use them. But those combos? That first one is my BnB that I use in matches all the time (minus the extra two Raikousens at the end because that is only possible with Jam Session). Seriously it takes maybe two days to learn charge switching (one day to learn switching from L to M to H, and one day to learn to dynamically switch) and that’s the only thing that makes any of these combos challenging. Maybe I’m just spoiled because I learned it all during TvC though. shrug

749

Honestly, methinks…

S:
Akuma, Amaterasu

A:
Zero, Dante, Sentinel, Tron, Wesker, Taskmaster, Wolverine, Magneto, Storm, Doom, She-Hulk, Dormammu

B:
Arthur, Haggar, Hulk, Deadpool, Phoenix, Spencer, Trish, Chun-Li, Iron Man

C:
Ryu, Morrigan, Felicia, Chris, Viper, Super Skrull, Hsien-Ko, X-23, Captain America

D:
M.O.D.O.K., Thor, Viewtiful Joe, Spider-Man

These are my personal tiers, I guess. I base these off of personal experience and every stream/video I’ve seen.

750

Oh don’t play stupid you know what I meant. Zero can’t do anything after that tiger knee sentsuizan (sp?) technically you’re right Jam session isn’t an otg, but it worked similar to one in that particular combo. Marn does the exact same thing with Magneto’s disruptor, and there is about 30 other assist you can do that with, but that wasn’t the fucking point. The point was other characters can do 700k without an assist, and one meter. Which was the point I was trying to hammer home. What if they called their assist earlier to land the combo or to zone? No one at the high level lets you walk up to them and do your magic series into a 800k BNB.

You just said it yourself it takes a day or two when most character in this game can be figured out in an hour.

I personally put in the time to learning charge combos (I didn’t play TVC), but I can see reasons why other don’t want to.

751

I must have missed this…
Anyway, Wolverine’s standard bnb is fairly average when compared with other rushdown characters considering he also has to burn meter for it. I think your argument for Wolverine is really based on his ease of execution, because I agree in that I always see Wolverine players hitconfirm his jabs into full combos very consistently. Other characters often end up dropping their combos somewhere just because it’s more difficult to pull off, or they just resort to an easier less effective combo. Regardless, a good portion of the cast can pull damaging combos starting from a simple jab. Shaving off 80% health in one combo from any hit is not particularly an outstanding feat in Marvel. Unless we’re including ease of execution as a criteria for evaluating characters, I don’t see how Wolverine’s damage exceeds other stuff in this game. Having 2 moves that are safe on block don’t mean a whole lot if they get destroyed by pushblocking. If we’re ignoring how easy it is to pushblock moves, then Chun legs are a 100x worse in creating pressure than Wolverine’s dive kicks. Wolverine lacks a safe move for countering pushblock tactics like Akuma tatsu, spinning bird kick (air), Zero shippuga. His beserker barrage is the only option which is punishable. Berserker slash gives him a really good mixup, but there’s not much he can do after other than hyper.

752

I’m throwing in my two cents for the tier list

S:
Dark Phoenix
A+:
Wesker, Amaterasu, Magneto
A:
Dante, Sentinal, Taskmaster, Akuma
A-:
Zero, She-Hulk, Dormammu, Doctor Doom
B+:
Tron, Storm, Hulk, Chun-Li
B:
Trish, Super-Skrull, Spencer, Phoenix, Iron Man, Thor, Ryu, X-23, Felicia, Morrigan, Captain America, Deadpool
B-:
Shuma-Gorath, M.O.D.O.K., Arthur, Hagar, Jill
C+:
Chris, Hsien-Ko
D(on’t Leave Us Out):
Viewtiful Joe, Spiderman, C. Viper

As for my top 10 assist:

  1. Tron - Robot Burp
  2. Doom - Cold War Launch
  3. Sentinel - Cool Kid Force
  4. Wesker - Foot Shot
  5. Akuma - Dark Spinning Kicking
  6. Dante - Jam Out
  7. Chun-Li - Legs-o-steel
  8. Iron Man - Blast
  9. Shuma-Gorath - Eye Blast
  10. Dormammu: Astronomy Lesson
753

:rofl:

754

If anyone puts C. Viper lower than B tier they’re fucking high, or haven’t seen the disgusting shit she can do.

755

That’s the problem. Very few people, myself include, have seen even a DECENT Viper. You mind enlightening the party?

756

I have seen what she can do, but she is a meter WHORE for some crazy damage. A great viper with 5 meters is gonna kill out a character assuming they don’t drop the combo, but they also have to use all 5 meters. There are alot of characters that can do 100% with fewer meters. Additionally, alot of her best tools use meters, not even including once they are in a combo. At this early stage, I’m seeing this more of a weakness then anything. I also would be surprised if no one ended up tearing up some players with her down the line, but I feel that’s a ways away yet.

757

Marlin Pie plays her first, and she (his Viper) builds crazy meter and her damage without meter is respectable.

758

Viper’s a self sufficient mechanism, if you give her 3/4 of a single gauge she can use 3 gauges in a combo just fine. I agree that people are sleeping on Viper, starting with 1 gauge she can do 1 million damage without X-factor =/

759

People are intimidated by what she can do, thinking that’s what you should/need to do to in order to play her successfully when it’s really not the case imo. You don’t need to feint and cancel and EX move everything and try for those type of combos. Ground series, seismo jump cancel air rave land combo launch air combo double jump combo and finish, then seismo and go air tech trap or super is pretty good damage and meter.

760

Her good combos aren’t that complex, when she hits someone and they’re on the ground they die more often than not assuming at least one of my assists is alive even with my less than stellar execution. The only feint that she practically needs is fierce Thunder knuckle for combos thanks to its properties in relation to pre EX burnkick launches. Feinted burn kick is incredibly useful for mix up, but as far as combos go with no high execution things she can deal lots of damage.

box loop is over rated, I think it’s only useful if you started with absolutely 0 gauge, you have Phoenix on your team, or off of a throw since Viper can almost always kill a character instead of building gauge and that’s a positive trade since her pressure strings and mix up build enough gauge just fine.

Her damage output or gauge requirements are not the issues she runs into, even though with her tools she can dominate most match ups she needs to respect the fact that her normals are terrible compared to other hybrid characters like her, they’re just fine for once she’s started pressure, but she needs to be exceedingly cautious about her pokes against Taskmaster, Magneto, Zero, Dante, and other characters with exceptional normals as her hurtboxes fill up a much more significant portion of her attacks. Aside from issues with normals and her health her weaknesses are incredibly minimal. She hasamong the highest damage outputs in the game, can build meter like a fiend, incredibly good match ups against very good characters thanks to how Seismo was turned into a marvel tool that hits an area it entirely shouldn’t in a very safe way, can zone, can rush down, can chip and can run. The longer the game is out the better Viper’s going to get since she has the ability to do what other characters do only better with a tad more execution to do it. Seismo as of now is a fairly busted tool, people just haven’t applied it yet, fun fact Viper can chip half of Phoenixes life gaugeless.