Exactly. Chrisis highlighted a lot of good points about Team RE that nobody else has caught onto. That wasn’t even all of it. For example:
-Jill’s Arrow Kick gives Wesker a perfect Phantom Dance every time. It also makes his OTG easier since you don’t have to be next to the opponent after a Cobra Strike, dash up.
-If you switch to her Somersault Kick, it gives the team an invulnerable anti-air leading into a combo that CAN kill you.
-LV3 DHC Chris > Jill > Wesker which includes DHC trick is well over a million damage, extremely simple and only requires 1 hit confirm from Chris.
-Chris can do a 588,000 damage combo with no meter using Wesker assist.
-MGS > XF = free mixup on anybody and a kill on Dark Phoenix
The whole point of this exercise is to see who can actually break the team down and demonstrate knowledge of the game on a team that you don’t play. Obviously no one is going to completely break it down b/c no one plays it but the comments following it shows exactly what I wanted. Even if a person couldn’t break it down, the attitude towards it is important too.
The thing is, Chrisis wasn’t even IN the argument in the first place and the people who I expected to “break down” the team are missing in action. What a surprise huh? I know who to take seriously now and who to take with a grain of salt.
Ah good catch. It seems tough midscreen depending on your height though, and requires the faster OTG assists like Wesker. I guess it’s just another option in that case. I think it’s most useful when paired with Dante or Taskmaster who normally struggle to combo off their ground throws (well, Taskmaster’s back throw anyway). For those two, it’s just a quick dash + THC and you get a clean 500k and they both pair well with Storm normally to begin with.
Also just to confirm, Storm’s flight mode is buggy and if you do a :d::db::ub::s: motion to do it while in the air, it lets you call assists whenever during her flight mode. If you do just the regular :d::db::s: motion, it does not. I think it’s cancelling hover mode into flight and keeps the “allowed to call assists” property of hover mode? But I’m not sure. I don’t think it works if you cancel an airborne normal or special into it - just if you do it dry during a jump or superjump.
This. This is like the main reason I actually keep Jam Session and switch to Peekaboo against phoenix teams. You really need to have a plan against that hoe and a 50/50 mixup while she’s locked down is really your best plan. Like real 50/50 mixups where you just have to guess left or right and pray to god you block.
@Akuma31, I think we all know who to not take seriously as well. Because when the good points of your team include the ability to set up a perfect phantom dance(LOL), Level 3 DHCs and 588 meterless combo damage using an assist, it makes me think that there’s nothing particularly ground breaking about that team.
Also the Jill reversal, doesn’t it have to be a CC to be invuln? And to kill you have to cancel it into Raven Spike> DHC glitch? And that cancel is ridiculously hard? I don’t know Jill at all(not planning on buying her) but that’s what I heard from a friend of mine who mains Jill.
Precisely. I’m not a great player by any stretch, but I feel like I’m ahead of the curve on focusing on these welcome setups. Like you said, snapping Phx in and then letting her fly away is just dumb (though when I play Phx, I’d like to say “THANKS!!” to all the offenders). I’d start a thread about these welcome setups, but the mods kill such threads even when it makes no sense to put them in some general mvC3 thread (I’m really salty about that happening to a thread I created about duos a while ago… was fukcing stupid of them. /rant) I came up with an unavoidable unblockable in the corner on welcome with Dorm and Dante. problem is I don’t really play Dorm, so it’s a work of genius, but doesn’t much help me lol but I am very VERY interested in these setups, whether fighting Phx teams or not.
Also, I dont really know how X23’s Dirt Nap works, but if it works so well on welcome, maybe a legit anti-Phx strat could be to try and build 4 meters asap, before they do, then try to snap-n-nap? Just thinkin out loud.
Edit: Just to expound, who do you guys think (character or duos) have the best setups for this? Wolverine, because he really needed more tools, is one of the best for sure. Jam Session helps with fly away. Dormammu flame carpet + Jam Session + Tri jump is the setup I mentioned above. In the corner it’s a guarantee if you time everything right. Shehulk seems to have a good setup, I just don’t know it specifically. Dante acid rain to teleport is strong. Wesker with the right assist can be powerful too. I’m not makin’ a comprehensive list here, so I’m missing a few. But THIS is the anti-Phoenix tech, IMO.
Unlike Wolverine, she requires great execution and great reactions. She has a few similar features like left/right mix-ups and some high/low mix-ups, but Wolverine’s are easier to do and seem a little better overall.
She’s much faster than he is, and her frame advantage pressure is really gross. Advancing guard doesn’t help you much here and there’s no natural end to it - just when she goes for a mix-up or misses something. The execution and reactions for it is prohibitive at the moment, but it’s definitely doable in actual matches.
Dirt Nap tricks are great too, and she has some invuln supers that are fast and travel far.
**The point of the exercise was not to claim the team was viable. ** Too many people think about stuff in a good or bad, black or white and don’t critically analyze what’s there. You didn’t necessarily do that and not only that, but you focused only on the negatives and summarily dismissed everything as if you were an expert on the team and been playing it the whole time. Like I said, the attitude counts too and you have a shitty attitude towards it. You can be critical and scathing towards the team, but do it in an intelligent manner so people know what the fuck you are talking about. In this post, you just laugh at everything and say it’s not viable. You didn’t break anything down at all. That’s not intelligent. People should take you with a grain of salt.
let me add that this is a tier thread. If you’re going to be making a case for whatever, then it’s important to know that you have a good grasp of the game and not only that, but explain how and why. Otherwise the tier list isn’t going to be taken seriously and you’re just putting up characters in a list that’s not based on anything.
That’s what the X-23 forums have been working on actually.
X-23 has a level 1 assist X-Factor combo that kills everyone in the game and gives her 2.65 bars on top of the 1 bar you auto start with.(against 800K health characters and characters will small hitboxes, you need to adjust it.) So all she has to do is lay hands on the second character with a decent combo after she kills the first to get 4 bars, snap back during the combo, use a lockdown assist like Dante’s to keep Phoenix in place and down she goes. At least that’s how the plan would ideally go anyway.
I didn’t dismiss anything. I just pointed out that the pros you are giving for the team are barely pros and that there doesn’t seem to be anything ground breaking on your team. Do you think anyone would take me seriously if I said one of the pros of my team was that the Trish assist allows me to get all hits of Million Dollars in or that Zero can get 600k meterless thanks to Dante’s assist? Fuck no.
Meanwhile, I highlighted the only interesting pro in your list, I asked you how it worked because from what I heard, it doesn’t seem practical at all, yet you conveniently glossed over that and proceeded to try to flame me.
Yeah I had thought about the build 4 meters than snap thing but you also have to consider the fact that a Phoenix team could easily land a random tag and get really close to building 5 meters where it’d be tough to manage all the time. Especially since you’re trying to decide when to burn meter to kill off a character is more important and what not it gets kinda iffy. Ryuga’s idea of just turning on the XF and building 2 and a half meters and then touching the next character and getting her out of there is much more solid than just typical TAC fighting it out for the 4th bar shit. The time it takes standard to build 4 bars the Phoenix team could already have 5. You want a way to build 4 bars before she gets 2.
It could fuck up if for some reason you dont get the hit and then they get the 5 but generally it’s worth the risk since pretty much once you get the 4 bars and land the snap there’s no “maybe”…if Phoenix doesn’t have 5 bars she goes home. You just wanna make sure it doesn’t screw up and you’re left fighting DP without XF because that’s auto loss.
If you end up just doing well enough in a match where you still have Dante and X23 against a Phoenix team you can kinda just keep them in the game long enough to kill off everybody after she transforms into DP and inevitably raw tags the slave back in. If you kill off the slave and Dark Phoenix has to come in, as long as you got 3 meters you dont have to fight DP. This could work as a last ditch situation if you have both X23 and Dante available and you fuck up the XF kill.
If you are thinking so because of Wong’s 6-0 pwnage in NorCal, his opponent was a Phoenix n00b who got to the finals on the strength of his Magneto and Taskmaster… he dealt with Wong’s snapbacks poorly and didn’t safely hard tag his other characters in whenever he survived Wong’s mixups, which just invited Wong to snap her back in again. Tokido defeated Wong because he was a lot cleverer in surviving Wong’s snapbacks. He would throw salty balls and wait for the right moment to hard tag. The good Phoenix players like F Champ and Viscant wouldn’t let you kill their Phoenix so easily upon snapback. If Wong is going to rely on snapbacks to deal with Phoenix I can’t help but feel that he’s going to fall to one of those good Phoenix players in EVO.
I cant say this w/ authority outside of the corner, but at least IN the corner, doesn’t matter if your F-Champ, Viscant, or Justin Wong on steroids, if I’m able to snap you in, and have a good welcome setup, you have NO CHOICE but to deal with a 50/50. Now a Viscant, or so, might be able to guess the 50/50 better, sure. But he will still have to make the guess. And that situation is going to give me better odds than learning Spiderman, i assure you.
Tron doesn’t lose to akuma or dive kick. Hers is a medium priority projectile, and akuma only eats low priority ones.
Tron’s vulnerable spot (very low, i.e. wolverine crouch A) is covered by phoenix’s slide, which I’ve never seen lose.
Phoenix’s slide moves her forward enough to evade crossup beserker slash.
4.If slide is blocked, she can go into something safe like Stand C, Low Trap, B/C Teleport, or even A TK Overdrive. If wolverine is blocking, that means he’s not beserker slashing! GREAT!
5.When phoenix super jumps, she can do a host of things to keep wolverine at bay, and most of them prevent wolverine from simply waiting for her to come down and mixing her up. These include some variation of A)homing balls B)Fly C)Down+C Headstomp D)Teleport (A,B,or C). You can even do down C, empty Cancel to C Teleport to ensure being over Wolverines head, then headstomp again. When she hits the ground, Tron comes out and it starts again.
I’m not the only one out there claiming Jean Grey beats Wolverine straight up. Viscant’s said it too, and even said on the Cross counter DVD that he would start her against wolverine. Hell, he’s said on SRK:
It sucks I have to run to one of the only elite player/ posters on SRK to prove a point, but there you go.
One more thought on the snap in phoenix and mix her up clinic that Justin displayed in that 6-0 pwnage in NCR…
I would have liked to see the phoenix player come in with Phoenix Rage once or twice. A lot of the 50/50 setups require really committing yourself (cross up drill claw/ jump C O/S throw, etc etc) and Firebird’s 14 frame invincibility will take care of that.
Sure, it’s a huge risk. You lose a meter and you’re open for a aeon afterward. It only does 320k and you can’t DHC from it since you’ve been snapped in. But I’ve had it work way more often than not (especially if you can spy a player committing before you come out)… and it at least puts the doubt in their head that you CAN and WILL do it.
You dismissed the perfect dance setup and laughed at it. You didn’t break it down at all. It’s 630,000 damage. I can kill you with that in two combos. If I wanted, I can X-factor and kill you with it on one. Same as Wolverine or Magneto. Wesker has his teleport mixup with Chris’s Gun Fire so it’s far from a helpless team. Anti-Air is there if I need it (Chris Mine or Jill Somersault Kick) I’m well aware that the tools the team has is not stellar, but it’s not terrible. I picked Team RE to scrutinize because it’s not readily apparent how you are going to go about analyzing this team. It’s easy to do Wolverine/Sentinel/Phoenix, but team RE is more obscure b/c no one plays it.
What I listed was simply pieces to a bigger part of the puzzle. It’s something that no one has considered, or know about. That’s beside the fact. The idea was to see how you react to it and you failed. You got mindfucked son.
I didn’t see that part of your post. With Jill’s Somersault kick, it can be a CC or can be done on point and it will have it’s invulnerability. It doesn’t have invulnerability as an assist. For the kill, you do need to DHC glitch but it is not hard. Once Jill comes in with the Somersault Kick, you go into her BnB and end it with either FS H or qcf+L into Raven Spike > Rhino Charge. Or just finish it with Machine Gun Spray which does respectable damage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5yIGh5721U
Why wouldn’t I flame you? Look at your post and consider that in the opposite situation, and the message was for you, you wouldn’t be happy with that would you? There’s nothing to that post and it helped nobody and showed nothing. The way I see it, all you did was laugh at me. So yeah, I did flame you and I thought it was unintelligent.
The problem is that Phoenix’s slide is 9 frames and Wolverine’s Crouching L is 6 frames. It’s also spammable too, and goes under Tron’s flame. Any real Wolverine player would catch both of your characters.
Phoenix beats Wolverine and Zero huh? I figured Wolverine was pretty good at killing her… but I guess he only really has an advantage if she’s coming down from the air. Zero, I can see her beating but if he can get above her (super jump then command dash jump) into buster when she throws a salty ball, she’s done.
I’ve been wanting to try snap into x factor > chip damage supers more on phoenix teams but it seems like you usually need about 4 meters to kill her (1 for snap, 3 for the chip supers) so unless you just started the match off dominating or landed a series of TACs, you’re probably not going to have so much of a meter surplus then that she won’t get dark phoenix by the time you chip her out.
I still think Zero / Dorm is almost the perfect team for countering phoenix. Zero has great mixups on incoming characters and also has Rekkoha to chip her out on snap. Dorm can drop her so quick with chip damage as well as being able to get around her zoning (pillars, chaotic flame, flare, teleport into air throw into death), so I think that team has a lot of potential in the tournament environment with lots of phoenixes floating around.
Wesker on any team with a projectile is far from a helpless team. I think everyone knows that. Your team is not terrible for the sole reason that Wesker is on it.
Also you didn’t get it. I laughed at the fact that you listed being able to set up a perfect dance as a pro. You can do that with pretty much any character. I expected your pros to be something inherent and unique to your team, something your team had going for it over others, and the only thing that struck me as a pro of playing your team was the point I singled out and asked for clarification.
As a reference, if I were to list some pros of my team, it would be something like: Ability to kill of any hit
I sure as hell would not say:
Dante assist helps Zero deal 600k meterless Dante Level 3 follow up combo>Zero DHC glitch deals well over 1M Trish assist helps me get all the hits of million dollars
I guess we simply have differing opinions on what we consider as pros.
Dude… this is when you need to get your head of of the frame data at look at the damn screen.
Phoenix’s slide starts up in 9 frames… sure… but she starts it a half screen away. by the time it gets anywhere near Wolverine’s range for C.A, she’s already in heaps of active frames that extend out to the flames. Here the onus would be on Wolverine to hit his C.A 6 frames before phoenix hit him, within the few frames that his short is active.
Umm… Wesker can do around 500k (I think i’ve gotten up to 541) pretty easily without using meter. That’ll kill most of the characters in the game in two combos. Better yet, by not using Phantom Dance, wesker usually has them in the corner in a tech flip reset situation, increasing the liklihood of that next hit tenfold.
When’s the last time you saw Jago or Viscant use Phantom Dance? I thought so.
But wait a minute I thought we were talking about the start of the match guessing game where Wolverine and Phoenix are face to face? According to you, you call out Tron, slide then sj. fireball happy. This is the problem with theorycrafting. In a real match, if I were to walk up to you with Wolverine and you knew you were in real threat of c.L, you’d jump back or jump over me to avoid it.
I’ve seen it done with Akuma assist but he had to teleport and/or back dash for the setup which is too complicated. The only assists that can reliably set it up is Jill and Spencer. He can do it himself also at the cost of less damage.
Yeah, but I’m not going to start the match point blank to wolverine… I’ll keep the starting match distance.
Besides, Phoenix’s crouch A is 4 frames. But at point blank, it’s really just mash throw anyway.
:ub::s: motion to do it while in the air, it lets you call assists whenever during her flight mode. If you do just the regular :d::db: