Was anoyone else smiling so hard their faces hurt when Marn, who’d decided Phoenix was just free wins and broken, used her to collect his paycheck and got blown up like a balloon animal?
@ThisGuileKillYa:
Local Honzo Gonzo beat Marn in a money match as both his Phoenix team and his non Phoenix team.
Bottom/lowest of low tier character are characters that they have fundamental problems that causeS HUGE liability to their entire team. You are literally playing with a character that is considered deadweight on your team. To play as Arthur you have deal with a huge risk character that meter hogs at the levels of Phoenix. To play as Haggar you have deal with the fact he gets zoned by the entire cast. To play as Hsien-Ko you have to playing with the weakest damaging character in the game… and massive meter-hog PLUS one of the slowest character.
Do you seriously believe that Spider-man is on par with those characters?Just because Spider-man isn’t tourney viable doesn’t you mean can’t be mid/low tier. It’s possible that mid tier characters suck in MVC3, kind of like in MVC2.
I agree with what Jago was saying, it’s much better to have 3 competent characters that can stand alone without an assist. With assists getting blown up so easy and X factor plowing through teams so fucking fast, you never know what you’re going to be stuck with it any point in the match. Tron and Haggar can substitute for a bad defense but then you’re also playing an incomplete team (and also not getting better as a player because you’re just mashing assist in situations where you would normally have to think to defend).
Most of the top now seems like they have good mobility and can function decently on their own. Assists should make your game stronger but not be mandatory to a characters success. I picked my team for characters that work well alone and even better with others, and I made a point to learn all of them in and out so I’m never saying “shit, if only I had my assist”. Beating an entire team with just ammy or dante with no assist to back them up feels great.
Here’s my current breakdown of tiers. I weigh tournament results heavier than forumfighter, but I don’t completely disregard the potential of characters. If there’s no comment next to someone, I think it’s self explanatory
S Tier
[LIST]
[]Phoenix - She is favored in any match-up, and she forces a game-plan on you. This is all before she powers up, and with or without X-Factor
[]Wolverine - The best rushdown character currently
[/LIST]
A+ Tier
[LIST]
[]Dante
[]Magneto
[]Amaterasu - I think many disregarded her as top tier because she doesn’t run the table like Wolverine or XF3 Wesker. She doesn’t really have bad match-ups though
[]Akuma - Best assist in the game for just about everything, and it happens to be on a character that isn’t free to Phoenix? A+ Tier right there
[*]Wesker - Has a few bad match-ups despite his dominance over many characters
[/LIST]
A- Tier
[LIST]
[]She-Hulk - Similar to Wolverine but not as dangerous
[]Dormammu - Great tools against both Wolverine and Phoenix, but bad match-ups against many of the A+ Tier characters oddly enough
[]Zero - Similar to Wolverine but not as brutal in practice. Has the potential to move up over time
[]Trish
[]C.Viper - I think as people begin to perfect her unblockables on character entry, she’ll be recognized
[]Sentinel
[/LIST]
B Tier- Many great assist characters here that are unimpressive on point
[LIST]
[]Taskmaster - Hasn’t proven that he can keep out rushdown or pressure runaway. I’m not sure where his ridiculous damage fits in right now. Poor mix-up keeps him from making impressive comebacks, which makes him less valuable in the slots you’d want to run him in (second, anchor)
[]Tron Bonne
[]Spencer
[]Dr. Doom
[*]Haggar
[/LIST]
**C Tier **- At this point, many of these characters are outclassed by characters above or just don’t fit well despite their tools
[LIST]
[]X-23 - Has potential with her speed, MFC’s and unblockable setups
[]Felicia - Has potential with her speed, unblockables and great assist. Immensely unproven, though
[]Storm - Play Magneto or Trish
[]Deadpool - Can’t help vs. a Phoenix team
[]Iron Man - He’s cool but really go play Magneto
[]Chris - Can’t help vs. a Phoenix team
[*]MODOK - Is hilarious
[/LIST]
**D-on’t Play These Characters Tier **- These characters are often clumsy, easily lamed out, or just inferior choices to other similar characters. Many are incomplete and require heavy assist usage to work or just don’t make sense in this game
[LIST]
[]Super-Skrull - I’m not sure what Justin and Combofiend saw in this guy. I think they were trolling us when they gave him a B-Tier
[]Ryu
[]Jill
[]Morrigan
[]Viewtiful Joe
[]Spider-Man - You have to base your entire team around him and then he’s still not great.
[]Thor
[]Hulk
[]Chun-Li
[]Shuma Gorath
[]Arthur
[]Hsien Ko
[*]Captain America
[/LIST]
S, A+, A- and B tiers all seem to be competitive. If you’re better than your opponent or they don’t know the match-up, maybe even some of the C-Tier characters as well.
I have the guide and I can tell you that Dante’s normals are among the slowest in the game. The fastest normal he has is 8 frames period. All of his L attacks are 8 frame start up. Which is the same speed as Wesker’s c.M.
He has great movement speed with his air dash and teleport but his one main weakness is that if the opponent gets remotely close to you your only hope is to pre emptively mash on s.L or s.M. If they throw out c.L or s.L at a range where it will hit you before you activate your s.L or s.M you’re done. As a Dante player you pretty much have to commit to blocking and an occasional advance guard. Anything else and you will get hit.
His c.L acts as a weapon which means it will stuff any normal if placed in the right spot and it’s also his only rapid fire normal. Unfortunately it has poor range and absolutely zero vertical hit box so you can’t use it to anti air like the other c.L’s. If you want to anti air you have to get a s.L, s.M, air throw or hammer on the screen.
Haggar has one of the best assists in the game. Hsien-Ko has a good assist as well. They’re bad characters with good assists. Spiderman’s a bad character with bad assists.
Justin making Storm look real good.
Haha, that’s great, as you know I do love team Honzo! Tho i do want to add to my prev post, I have nothing wrong with marn. But just with people thinking if Phoenix is on yoursquad, you’re no longer capable of losing. Marn found out fast and hard that Phoenix takes some work and has some vulnerabilities.
On the Jago comments… it’s a shame because they’re really making me think a lot, and he has a great point. But I really do rely a lot on tron assist. I don’t scrub it out and mash my tron button, I try to be strategic with it. But I dodefinitely rely on it. Just when I thought I had my teams set, I have to soul search again. : /
Yeah dante’s normals are kinda slow but you can always just push block and then resume doing what dante does. His normals are pretty hard to challenge and you really just can’t safely attack him from the air. Missiles > Devil trigger is like his own assist and the lightning move in DT does an assload of damage, blocked or not. Plus he has hard drive… for no meter at all… can catch anyone running away, explodes on the damage department and can DHC glitch. Oh and all 3 of his assists are useful.
I can see wolverine being a problem for him though.
Everybody has some kind of a problem with Wolverine just because…it’s Wolverine. Though Dante I feel has more than enough to deal with Wolvie compared to the other cast. Wolverine actually has to think about what he’s doing when fighting Dante which is something that never happens when I use X23 or Doom vs. Wolvie. When you got a Wolverine player sitting back worrying about swords or having there berserker slash run into a hammer ground bounce you know the matchup isn’t as bad as it could be. If he does one bad dive kick, drill claw or berserker charge while you have swords or hammer out he’s taking a big hurt or dying. None of his random offensive shenanigans work on a Dante that has normals or hammer out. With assists you have more than enough of a projectile game to keep him in check also.
Man, marn’s phoenix was so damn terrible it was embarrassing. He was only doing basic combos, and was not taking advantage of OTG/Relaunch opportunities when they were available. He wasn’t even bothering to OTG after air throws and didn’t use XFlv3 until like 10 secs left…
On my team Wesker/Tron/Phoenix… Tron’s biggest liability… i.e. She’s kinda ass on point and gets blown up/zoned out for free… starts to become an advantage. with phoenix behind her, players WANT to rush her down to kill her… then realize she has 1.2 million health and will give phoenix up to two meters as she dies.
If she’s left as the last girl standing, My phoenix has gotten blown up and wesker’s dead… Time to call it a day, maybe get lucky.
Agreed. I’ve played a lot of Renegade’s team as well, and a lot of the normal liabilities (Tron gets zoned, Wesker’s got a shitty lvl 1, Tron assist scales, etc) are completely mitigated, or even turn to strengths. It’s quite well designed. And yeah when Marn went on that air throw spree, wtf was he doing not at leas TRYING to OTG? My TK FBs whiff a lot of the time for some reason, but you gotta at least GO for em.
I dunno man, one mistimed swing or whiffed hammer might be punished by berserker slash. If Wolverine has drones behind him, dante can’t really do anything to keep him away… even if Dante does hit wolerine he’s still gotta stop and respect the drones before he does something else, giving wolverine plenty of time to recover or start his own offense… which kinda sucks for dante. I guess you’d need a good beam to keep sentinel in check… but maybe we’ll be seeing more of that to counter wolverine. He’s dumb but it’s really the drones behind him that make him the biggest problem.
On the issue of being able to run all 3 of your characters solo without assists:
I disagree with Jago. Yes that is incredibly nice and I’m sure it will benefit your play, but sometimes the potency of an assist character is beyond worth not having a third real character. Yes, in this game it’s possible to lose your first character then eat a mix up at the very beginning of the game giving you no chance to play your real characters, but it’s a matter of how much you get out of an assist.
Let’s take Wolverine for an example and this isn’t accurate this is hypothetical so don’t jump on me for statistical inaccuracies here.
If Wolverine is being played solo there are certain situations he can and cannot capitalize on and does or does not have answers to, when complimented by Akuma those situations change dramatically.
If Wolverine solo has effective options 30% of the time, but with Akuma assist they increase to 75% of the time that in effect means your Akuma existing as an assist even if he died instantly for touching the field may already be worth it if Wolverine is your main character, you’re doubling the efficacy of plan A instead of having a moderate plan A with moderate plan B behind it.
This isn’t necessarily as true as it was in Marvel 2 with how easy it is to lose a character in Marvel 3. There are times when having 30%, 30%, 30% (under 100) is better than having 75%, 75%, 10% (over 150) thanks to the possibility of losing 2 characters pretty instantly and not getting the chance to play them. However the 75%, 75%, 10% set up is more likely to cause that situation in the first place. There are benefits to having balanced teams where everyone’s viable, but if an assist only character creates enough of a benefit for the team it’s more than worth having them as an assist.
In a game where dropping the soap is death, who drops the soap the least
Wolverine
In a game where death is one touch away, so long as you don’t drop a combo, who is the best at getting that first touch
Wolverine
Mid-high tier… yeah, right. Potential counts but execution and RESULTS count more. its why Dhalsim wasn’t god tier in marvel 2, sure in theroy he was, but why put so much more time into learning him when you can learn MSP, MSS, Santhrax, Matrix or something that WORKS and WINS.
Drones isn’t that big of a deal with the right assist. I use Doom with plasma beam and Doom beam blows up drones pretty nice. The durability on it is so strong and its so fast that it will blow up all 3 drones on the screen or knock Sentinel off the screen before the drones even come out. Forcing Wolverine to fight without an assist. If you need even more help Dante still answers to the call with the ability to turn on Devil Trigger and use his beam special which blows up sent drones assist for free. The same set up is great against Magneto with drones. Jump up in the air and do level 2 charged air play while calling Doom beam. Level 2 charged air play goes through L disruptah and doom beam will blow up the drones.
Dante with the right assist has all the tools to stop Wolverine and his shenanigans. Some characters wish they had 30 percent of the stuff Dante has to deal with Wolvie and drones. Dante is basically giving you stuff to deal with Wolvie compared to the other characters.
Marn supposedly said he picked up Phoenix like 2 days ago.
Yeah I’ve usually felt, when using a team where an assist just doubles or triple’s a characters strength (Tron, Doom, Akuma, haggar, Drones, etc) and it’s DESIGNED based on abuse of an assist, that the prevailing attitude could be “if you do your job right, you shouldnt be left with just a Tron.” Though, since I tend to argue both sides of a debate, when I’m down to just tron, I often feel it’d be a lot cooler in those moments to be Taskmaster or Wesker lol
I find this rarely happens with Wesker/Tron/Phoenix.
Either two things will happen usually when you’re losing…
1)they’ll snap in phoenix and kill her, which leads to Tron jumping out, and XF3 wesker in the back. If you get a hit, it’s pretty easy to setup the DHC trick to wesker for a character kill.
2)they’ll kill wesker, which probably has you looking at 3-4 meters b/c he’s a tank for some reason. Dark Phoenix is imminent.
I think you misunderstood Jago. From what I see, he’s talking about players who have 1 character teams where if you kill the first character, you’ve essentially won the game bar some big fuck up on your part.
He never said anything about playing all of your characters solo. He’s just saying it’s not worth it to have one character and 2 assists backing him up because shit happens and then you’re fucked.
He was advertising teams that have more than one viable winning strategy rather than running all your characters without assists. A bit like a lot of the WC teams, like Jwong/Combofiend etc. You kill She-Hulk and you know the fight is only just starting now that you have to deal with Wolvie and XF2. Meanwhile you look at a team like Nerdjosh’s and the moment She-Hulk is dead, you know you’ve won since Taskmaster/Tron aren’t scary at all on their own or together.
A lot of good characters have good assists, not as good as tron but those characters aren’t auto lose when they’re on their own, just like Akuma. So in the end it’s more like 75/75/30. You can double the efficiency of Plan A and B and still have a decent chance of success with Plan C if the first 2 fail, JUST LIKE JWONG’s team. Or you can be like Tokido with 75/30/90 lol.
Oh sorry Renegade, I wasn’t refering to your team in that instance. Didn’t really I was being unclear till too late. I play 2 teams w/ Tron, the other has her in the back. On your team I NEVER regret a character being who they are lol