MvC3 Actual Balance/Potential Tiers Discussion

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
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Yet he couldn’t even defeat Clakey D’s Magneto/Wolverine/Tron. Him sticking to his team is his biggest weakness, while others are picking up scary, broken crap with Wolverine/Dante/Magneto/Ammy he increasingly has to grind out results with his team. To others Comebackfiend is great for his comebacks, to me it’s a sign that he’s increasingly struggling to catch up with the other top players. I have a feeling that he’s going to have a hard time in Evo.

All this talk about Wolverine/Akuma being broken and overused is stupid anyway. Chris G used Ammy/Ryu/Wesker and very nearly defeated J Wong’s team. X-Ray ran circles around Noel Brown’s Wolverine/Wesker/Akuma with just his Ammy, and he defeated Daigo’s Wolverine/Dante/Akuma too. People seem to be ignoring how Tokido, Remix, PR Rog and Clakey D have terrific Wolverines that don’t use Akuma at all, and they are not the only ones. It’s just J Wong/Floe/Brown/Ricky/Daigo who are the prominent Wolverine/Akuma users ATM. Even the Phoenix teams have a great variety of partners for her.

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Yeah fair enough, I think Combofiend can come back stronger from his losses though. Just look at WNF, he lost one week badly and we didnt see him for a week or a two, then he came back and bodied everyone including Viscant in grand finals.

And Scythe I agree that Akuma/Wolverine arent broken and I hate people complaining about ‘broken’ stuff too as it leads to stuff like Vanilla Sagat getting nerfed too much in Super.However, what I was trying to say was that people like jumping on the top tier bandwagon and it often only gets results in the short run. What I’d like to see is people playing teams and characters who they like/who they are comfortable with even if they do require that extra work because it will improve you as a player and will help the scene out in the long run.I suppose the ‘play to win’ to attitude counters my opinion but thats fine too, I dont hate on anyone picking top tier as it will just help me learn how to fight against those characters more.

It’s just the recent two USA majors have been a bit boring when it comes to the top 4 and the reason I like this game is because it has about 20 interesting top tier characters which should have made for more diverse teams but its still Wolverine/Akuma running shit. I can just foresee the game getting stale if they’re winning every tournament.

This is just me using american tournament streams as a reference to make a point, none of this stuff really effects me as the UK scene I am part of is obviously different.

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That’s what I said about a week ago in our local thread LOL! I got called a scrub for it. The problem with Xcopying is that the player is only as good as the techniques he copies. Once a good player breaks that down, they just end up losing over and over. Someone who actually plays that character or team don’t have that disadvantage because they know the concepts behind their team and knows what tools to use to get around stuff.

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I actually like it when people jump on the top tier bandwagon. That’s how technology against them spreads quickly. I firmly believe that Tokido wouldn’t have blown up the US as badly as he did if more top players had been playing a serious, massively cheap top tier team. Not to say that Tokido’s skill didn’t put him over the top, but he was definitely two steps ahead because of his ability to abuse bullshit.

In this regard, I agree with Daigo: Fuck e-fame and pleasing the stream monsters. If you’re a professional player, or especially a sponsored player, you’re there to win. Period. You’re there to do whatever it takes to pull out a W even if everybody in the world hates you for it. If you have to abuse the most broken, scrub friendly bullshit in order to put yourself over the top, then that’s what you do. If your tier whoring forces people to desperately start trying to find a way around it (like Tokido’s did after CEO), then you have done your job.

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Going off the topic for a moment, and it may be due to my lack of research, but I had no idea there even WAS a UK scene. I’ve been stuck with playing with my mates who don’t really like fighters or playing online.

Back on topic though, people who win streams should be happy to use who they want to. If they are there to win then obviously abuse the characters who you know win. Personally I prefer to use characters that I like over ones that win, but that’s the risk you take with some of the cast.

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It’s hard to disagree with what Jago’s saying there. I think anyone would agree that “yeah, you should learn all 3 characters and learn your combos/setups to function without assists”.

However, he makes it sound like Sentinel or Tron are bad character choices, which I disagree with. I think they’re even fine at anchor, provided the rest of the team makes sense. In a game where one touch can kill, Tron teams tend to get that first hit more often, or more hits overall. Yes, she scales the damage of a combo, but that can be easily undone with a DHC glitch.

Also, Jago’s team functions very well without the need for assist calls. That’s the nature of Wesker, Dante and Trish. Sure they see benefit from assist calls but they don’t require them to be at 80%+. As a result of not relying on assists though, or getting happy birthday’d all day long, I think Jago’s got some of the best defense in the game right now.

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Also I know everyone’s focused on Wolverine as the biggest problem right now, but I think it’s time to reconsider Akuma too. I think he’s a valid S-Tier at this point.

His assist really is that damn good. And it’s that good for any character in the game. It doesn’t matter what character you’re playing, you can smack :a2: and it will be awesome. It’s one of the few assists that helps extend combos, helps you get in, helps you stay in, and even can help push people out. And it does all of those things extremely well.

Wolverine gets more than he deserves because Akuma’s assist launches into an untechable fall that even your mom could hit-confirm off of.

And unlike most of the anchor assist characters, Akuma actually is a threat on his own. He can threaten/respond to Phoenix. He can make runs on teams by himself, especially with X-Factor level 3.

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as someone who’s working his ass off to make rushdown Gouki viable, I don’t think he’s S-tier. he’s A-tier at best. he’s a threat from a distance ONLY with meter. as long as you’re aware of the threat of a beam super punish, he can actually get out-zoned (i.e. Dormammu’s homing fireball super blows up akuma’s beam). up close, you’re forced to play footsies to get in that cr.L to confirm into a big damage combo (which I have not seen ANYONE on stream do these past majors) and even then you have to pretty much be at point blank since the range on his normals are horrendous. on point, he has trouble getting in on his own without an assist covering his approach. IMHO akuma right now is perfectly fine. they nerfed the hitstun on his tatsu already. I’d be thankful that people weren’t using wolverine as much back then. mostly, it’s just his BFF logan makes him seem like the best assist in the game, and I’m not inclined to disagree with that.

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Akuma has no mixups. He’s like Tron (jump :h:) and has one thing to get in with (air tatsu).
His assist is what keeps him up there. On anchor alone I’d much rather have someone like Wesker… much more mixup potential and more damaging XF3 without meter.

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He’s a threat from a distance only with meter? Anchor Akuma should have meter. I also don’t understand comparing Dormammu’s homing fireball to beam - they’re completely different supers. Homing fireball isn’t really a zoning super either - it’s something you setup to either chip like crazy or use into a teleport mix-up. Shockwave is a zoning super.

Also he has more approaches than just air tatsu. Air fireballs work well, and he has a good dive-kick too. Akuma has a command overhead, can convert off his throws, shoryu’s which cancel into super, invincible supers, etc. He has lots of options that you don’t see most terrible players use.

At the end of a match where both teams options begin to become more limited, he makes awesome use of the resources you have left.

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imo akuma’s most dangerous when you can manage to slow down the pace of the match. the reason his rushdown game sucks because of his life-- you can’t afford to do random tatsus to get in like tron does air lariats because she actually has health, whereas akuma has a measly 800k. if you can manage to slow down the pace of match to turn it into an SF4-style footsie battle, and establish the threat of one cr.L confirm into a combo, that’s where the demon really shines. especially if you can get your opponent in the corner, where has actually has decent high-low mixups (not to mention his lvl 3 becomes a HUGE threat, such that if you’re not holding up/up back by the time the screen flashes, you’re gonna get murderface’d).

I’m not necessarily referring to anchor akuma only-- I’m referring to akuma at any point in the match. from a distance, his ground beam super is your best option to whiff punish, and hell, even ryu can do that and more, since he can aim the beam however you want. his specials in this game are not as good as in SF4. when are you actually gonna use his DP’s as an anti-air? his fireballs are outclassed by many projectiles in this game, mostly the EM disruptor and doom’s plasma beam. shuma’s mystic ray is even better. as for his raging demon-- correct me if I’m wrong, but it can’t grab opponents out of the air like in SF4, hence it can’t really be used as an AA.

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Question: I’m currently trying out a Shulk/? Assist/Phoenix team. I recently got third at a small local tourney rocking the Phoenix team but came to realize that my assist character (Dorm) wasn’t getting the job done. I’m thinking of making Akuma my default assist, because even though Wolvie is his heterosexual life partner, Jenny is his booty call. (She’s basically a watered-down Wolverine, in my opinion.) How viable is this idea, do you think?

Also, any advice on clean-hitting Akuma’s OTG? I can’t seem to figure out how the damn thing works.

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Wolverine isn’t god tier. As easy as he is to use, he doesn’t have the tools to bypass good keepaway or zoning.

Wolvie loses to Dorm, Trish, Phoenix, Zero, Dante, Mag, Doom and MODOK. This is WITHOUT them using assists. They all have tools to keep him fullscreen away.

Too many people are jumping on the Wolverine bandwagon.

Someone said Dante’s normals were slow. Hardy har har. crouching l comes out in 3 frames, standing l comes out in 5 (I believe) not counting that it can be used as an anti-air or to out zone an opponent. Box jump H is broken and has the option to start a grab which can easily lead to a semi-dead opponent.

If you want to sum up mvc3 in a bag follow this formula: X character has to get around the crap that Trish, MODOK, Dorm, Doom and regular Phoenix can throw or bait you. Then that character has to do well against the other big two: Dante and Mags.

Great to see that the community is finally realizing that Tron and Haggar need an assist to be useful, if not, just XFC their two friends and they become free. Free to the point where you can smack them with projectiles full screen away or just lay a trap down and taunt them.

God tier:

Mags>Phoenix>Dante>Mags

Wesker is slightly below Dante and Mags, and his match up against Phoenix is bad.

High:

Zero

MODOK (stop sleeping on him people) Cubes control the screen so well. His air game is top notch. His H homing bomb is fucking resoundingly good, even after getting hit it BREAKS an opponents combo. His mix up game is great. Using his super barrier to pin an opponent in the corner is DEADLY. Instant L overhead is top notch and sets opponents up for his grab game. His two big weaknesses are his size (which makes throwing him easy) and the lack of a quick crouching attack.

Viper
Dorm

High Mid:

Wolvie
Storm
Ammy
Sentinel
Akuma
Doom
Trish

Mid:

Spidey (standing M misses on crouching opponents??? If this was fixed, Spidey would definitely be high mid with his rtsd)
Deadpool
The rest

Character that really needs help to get in:

Skrull - So many vertical projectiles just destroy his teleport game. His Air Dash doesn’t help him at all. Dante and Task just OBLITERATE him. Doom’s missiles fuck his life up.

Bottom:

Hsien

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:eek: Protip: Just hit with the dive kick OTG as soon as you can. You can up your chances by delaying your aerial combo to land on the ground sooner.

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I like She-Hulk/Akuma/Phoenix. Akuma can definitely extend She-Hulk combos or help them to get started in the first place (easy hit confirms off tatsu into :d::h:). If they blow up your Phoenix early, She-Hulk to Akuma DHC’s nicely, and you’ve still got level 3 XF Akuma waiting in the wings, most likely with meter. It’s a good back-up plan.

The trick to the clean hit is to do it fast I think. So off a regular magic series launch, slow down the hits so you fall a ways by the last hit. That gives you a bigger window to get it.

I wouldn’t consider She-Hulk a watered down Wolverine though. She’s in that same space of “assist dependent rushdown monster” but her style is hit/throw to his left/right stuff. I also think her anti-air super is undervalued against runaway Phoenix right now, too.

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justin has made use of gouki’s tatsu assist in conjuction with Jenny well, and I don’t see why it wouldn’t work on your team. try it out, see if you feel comfortable playing the bi-curious raging demon. lol.

as for his OTG, you need to delay the air S. you play She-hulk, and if I’m not mistaken, the timing should be relatively the same as in her relaunch BnB. midscreen, H demon flip is the correct strength you’ll need to use. corner, L demon flip obviously.

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akuma is s-tier people play him wrong same with ryu he best up close weapon is uppercut X beam and demon flip cross up

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^I don’t see how being a contender for worst normals in the game makes gouki s-tier lol. DP on block as in any game akuma’s been in to date leaves you at a serious frame disadvantage. and even so, he has way better options (cr.L) to get a lot of damage off a combo

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@Aoshi: Dante definitely doesn’t have anything that starts up faster than 8 frames normal-wise: Dante Frame Data

That being said, yeah, I’m sick and tired of hearing about Wolverine as well.

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akuma damage out put is top 10 hurricane kick ground + on hit ryu light hurricane in air + 23