MvC3 Actual Balance/Potential Tiers Discussion

[Spirit_Juice]

The logic is that people are stating that dropping Sent by 400k was unnecessary and when people presented arguments as to how he is overpowered, were simply told by the very people complaining, it’s “too early to tell” and that it will evolve. This in itself is circular logic because you are presuming Sentinel is fine and because there are unforeseen variables. By this logic, if Sentinel is 400k lighter in the health department, the same argument could be applied because saying that it’s unnecessary, you’re making an assessment of the character without taking into consideration the unforeseen variables that have yet to be discovered in the metagame. This is why the whole concept of avoiding balancing to preserve something which no one has perceived yet defies logic and why “it’s too early to tell” is fallacious.

Uh, balance is what it is. You calling it a knee-jerk reaction, doesn’t make it so. You’re simply calling it that because you believe that waiting for an undetermined amount of time will somehow aid in balancing the game. This is more circular logic because balancing is a dynamic process in the sense that changes can be made at any time. And just because a change is made during the early stages of a game’s cycle, doesn’t mean that no further changes will be made in the future. That’s why assuming that a patch in the early life of any game you mentioned is flawed and why people who are balancing the game are doing it. It’s not PR. Just common sense.

I’m going to be honest here and say I’m not exactly sure how to discuss “circular logic” with you. It feels like an argument I cannot win because of the nature of it, similar to religious people asking people to prove God does NOT exist, rather than they themselves cannot offer proof that he does.

All I can tell you is that allowing a game to evolve for a bit and then changing it when it comes to fighting games has been working fine for several franchises (although one could say Capcom is not very good at balancing their games logically). Is it the best method? Maybe or maybe not, but it is a tried and true method.

I’m not saying changes won’t be made in the future, but it is still better to wait until the game is figured out more before making changes. What is specific problems each character has, be it strengths or flaws.

My main issue is the way in which this patch was done. If Sentinel was nerfed based on something that wasn’t a simply a knee-jerk reaction, then what about the other characters? What about Dark Phoenix and her gameplay that completely changes how the game is played? Or what about the weaker characters? Where are their band-aid fixes? Ryu is not very good. Where is his health or damage buff? What about Viewtiful Joe?

Balancing is a dynamic act therefore you can determine what would be a good way to balance him out both now and after the game devellops more. If you are truely a competitive player, you should have no problems evolving with the game.

The problem with expecting constant changes to the game is that since the game is constantly changing on a monthly or bi-monthly basis is that it leaves little room for the game to develop. Instead of strategies changing and evolving in a progressive manner, we simply get “flavor of the month” strategies, teams, and characters. I’m not sure about you, but as a competitive player, half the fun of fighting games is seeing the game evolve over time. What about the time and effort a player puts into their team? What’s even the point of playing a team and perfecting it when everyone is just going to play “what’s good this month” and then wait until the next monthly patch.

I’m not acting like you won’t see MvC4. I’m just reminding you why it took so long for MvC3 to come out. Because catering to a select group of neckbeards isn’t how you’re going to make the game successful. Your entire argument is that balance will somehow ruin the metagame when you don’t even know what the fuck it looks like yet. That’s why your line of thinking is flawed. You’re trying to preserve something that doesn’t even exist and think that balancing the game during the course of its life will somehow ruin it and people’s heads will explode because they’re tampering with the timeline. It’s absurd.

If you think lack of balance or updates (back when updating the same fighting game was not common practice) is the reason why it took so long for MvC3 to come out, I’m not even sure what to say. Let’s not forget that, for the most part, MvC2 was a failure in Japan. It did well in the U.S., but in the grand scope of things, it did not do well. 3rd Strike was much more popular in Japan even though it was an older game (3S did decently in the US until it really blew up once it came out on PS2). Capcom vs SNK 2 came out much later and lasted a long time in both JP and US markets. From what I remember, Capcom’s next project was Capcom Fighting Jam, which ended up being a failure. After that, Capcom paid Arc System Works to develop Sengoku Basara X, which was another failure. It’s almost like Capcom wasn’t doing well in the fighting game market when it came to new games, especially in the age of Guilty Gear and Melty Blood at the time.

Logically, the MvC franchise wasn’t a good idea to bring back when the second game did not take off in Japan like it did in the US. It wasn’t until SFIV that Capcom actually had success with FGs again. The video game market back then was very different. The fact that you think the reason MvC3 took so long to come out is because MvC2 catered to “neckbeards” is probably one of the most outrageous statements I’ve read in this thread. In fact it’s almost offensive and makes me question if you really have any idea what you’re talking about. I don’t like to have to bring the conversation to that level, but your ignorance on the market then and now is alarming.

Very good post, but I am curious on your thoughts if they nerfed X-factor instead? It’s not a character, it’s something that affects everyone, but it would also still evolve over time on how to use it IMO.

While as much as I don’t like X-Factor, it’s a necessary evil in the game. X-Factor is the “scrub factor” or comeback mechanic much like Ultras are in SFIV. In other words, it’s the game mechanic that makes low level players feel like they have a fighting chance even though they are at a disadvantage. That is why I am somewhat confused about the sudden changes to Sentinel. Appeasing low level players beyond that is a bit weird.

[Meiz]

Um, that’s exactly the point though. The idea that you can go back later and fix a fuckup doesn’t make fucking up any more acceptable, because that still has a serious effect on things in the interim.

Usually if you break something then fix it, it’s better then breaking something and doing nothing. Also, saying that Sent lost 400k health and is 1 of 38 characters, is a “serious effect” is laughable.

[ihateM.O.D.O.K]

Usually if you break something then fix it, it’s better then breaking something and doing nothing. Also, saying that Sent lost 400k health and is 1 of 38 characters, is a “serious effect” is laughable.

Really? Throwing out some random idea and hoping it works is better than letting the game develop and making changes down the road when you have more information? Really?

[LonewolfZero]

I think x-23 should be a lot higher on your list renegade, She low vitality and shitty overheads are what make her less then perfect, but she is just so blazingly fast and has incredible mix up game and with the right assists i think she can body anyone but wesker

[DrewGrimey]

I think x-23 should be a lot higher on your list renegade, She low vitality and shitty overheads are what make her less then perfect, but she is just so blazingly fast and has incredible mix up game and with the right assists i think she can body anyone but wesker

I agree, lets get back on topic… I think her hypers are very good such as dirtnap and the level 1 hyper that goes through projectiles, I learned about that one the hard way lol.

[Thinobuns]

The logic is that people are stating that dropping Sent by 400k was unnecessary and when people presented arguments as to how he is overpowered, were simply told by the very people complaining, it’s “too early to tell” and that it will evolve. This in itself is circular logic because you are presuming Sentinel is fine and because there are unforeseen variables. By this logic, if Sentinel is 400k lighter in the health department, the same argument could be applied because saying that it’s unnecessary, you’re making an assessment of the character without taking into consideration the unforeseen variables that have yet to be discovered in the metagame. This is why the whole concept of avoiding balancing to preserve something which no one has perceived yet defies logic and why “it’s too early to tell” is fallacious.

Uh, balance is what it is. You calling it a knee-jerk reaction, doesn’t make it so. You’re simply calling it that because you believe that waiting for an undetermined amount of time will somehow aid in balancing the game. This is more circular logic because balancing is a dynamic process in the sense that changes can be made at any time. And just because a change is made during the early stages of a game’s cycle, doesn’t mean that no further changes will be made in the future. That’s why assuming that a patch in the early life of any game you mentioned is flawed and why people who are balancing the game are doing it. It’s not PR. Just common sense.

Balancing is a dynamic act therefore you can determine what would be a good way to balance him out both now and after the game devellops more. If you are truely a competitive player, you should have no problems evolving with the game.

I’m not acting like you won’t see MvC4. I’m just reminding you why it took so long for MvC3 to come out. Because catering to a select group of neckbeards isn’t how you’re going to make the game successful. Your entire argument is that balance will somehow ruin the metagame when you don’t even know what the fuck it looks like yet. That’s why your line of thinking is flawed. You’re trying to preserve something that doesn’t even exist and think that balancing the game during the course of its life will somehow ruin it and people’s heads will explode because they’re tampering with the timeline. It’s absurd.

this post is so focused on countering every single point Spirit Juice made , either by calling them fallacies or circular logic just to make your post look cool , or pulling out definitions of balance out of your ass and presenting them as fact when they’re nothing but your opinion about what balance is, that in the end , it makes no sense.

1. sorry but sometimes common sense applies more than logic in some situations , if you see people that originally said “its too early to tell” , saying that the change is unnecessary , its for the exactly the same reason why they said “its too early to tell” because that also implies “its too early for a patch”.

NOT because at every new random status of the game decided on a whim by Capcom , people have to sit there , wait to see how the metagame evolves , and discard all the previous strategies people were coming up with before said patch.

NEITHER because people that claims its unnecessary are trying to predict the future , they claim it is because of the reason I mentioned above , because it ruins everything they came up with , to be finally be able to tell with a little bit of objectivity , which characters/teams have indeed advantage over others teams at high level play , and eventually being able to let Capcom know which patch to come up with.

Because only when you actually think that way , yes , it becomes circular logic and fallacious.

2. you seem to assume that every random patch Capcom threw and will throw at us is “balancing” because according to you balance is a dynamic , so that every random shit competitive players get , they should just adapt to , as if the time and frequency they are planning to patch the game at was the only reason why its considered “early”.

in all seriousness , what does balancing a fighting game means to you?

[Meiz]

I’m going to be honest here and say I’m not exactly sure how to discuss “circular logic” with you. It feels like an argument I cannot win because of the nature of it, similar to religious people asking people to prove God does NOT exist, rather than they themselves cannot offer proof that he does.

The difference between proving God doesn’t exist and proving he does is that the former is asking to prove a negative, which no one can do, and the latter is circular logic. You can say “I can’t prove that god doesn’t exist but it’s not likely to be true based on what I already know”. If I was to spend 63 years of my life waiting by the chimney on the night of December the 24th, I could only say that 100% of my evidence indicates that this is not necessarily so.

All I can tell you is that allowing a game to evolve for a bit and then changing it when it comes to fighting games has been working fine for several franchises (although one could say Capcom is not very good at balancing their games logically). Is it the best method? Maybe or maybe not, but it is a tried and true method.

I’m not saying changes won’t be made in the future, but it is still better to wait until the game is figured out more before making changes. What is specific problems each character has, be it strengths or flaws.

Personally I don’t see it as such a detriment. I see something that seems out of place and I want to mold it so that it fits in better with the current model. I’m not saying that there aren’t potential problems in seeking balance either. I’m liking what I’ve seen so far with this initial attempt.

My main issue is the way in which this patch was done. If Sentinel was nerfed based on something that wasn’t a simply a knee-jerk reaction, then what about the other characters? What about Dark Phoenix and her gameplay that completely changes how the game is played? Or what about the weaker characters? Where are their band-aid fixes? Ryu is not very good. Where is his health or damage buff? What about Viewtiful Joe?

I don’t know. Perhaps overall Sent was the largest mango elephant in the room. I’d like to think that Dark Pheonix will get knocked down a peg in the future and Ryu and Viewtiful see some improvements. Who’s to say other characters won’t have anything modified?

The problem with expecting constant changes to the game is that since the game is constantly changing on a monthly or bi-monthly basis is that it leaves little room for the game to develop. Instead of strategies changing and evolving in a progressive manner, we simply get “flavor of the month” strategies, teams, and characters. I’m not sure about you, but as a competitive player, half the fun of fighting games is seeing the game evolve over time. What about the time and effort a player puts into their team? What’s even the point of playing a team and perfecting it when everyone is just going to play “what’s good this month” and then wait until the next monthly patch.

I don’t see how the balance changes are stagnating the evolution of MvC3 though. It’s just allowing it to evolve differently, and with a little guidance, for the better. The difference is that by trying to balance what’s there, you’re actively taking part in trying to make every character viable and as a result opening avenues that weren’t present before. I’m actually anxious to see how the WNF stream will shape up with the recent changes and I doubt they’ll have issues adjusting to the degree everyone seems to be implying

If you think lack of balance or updates (back when updating the same fighting game was not common practice) is the reason why it took so long for MvC3 to come out, I’m not even sure what to say. Let’s not forget that, for the most part, MvC2 was a failure in Japan. It did well in the U.S., but in the grand scope of things, it did not do well. 3rd Strike was much more popular in Japan even though it was an older game (3S did decently in the US until it really blew up once it came out on PS2). Capcom vs SNK 2 came out much later and lasted a long time in both JP and US markets. From what I remember, Capcom’s next project was Capcom Fighting Jam, which ended up being a failure. After that, Capcom paid Arc System Works to develop Sengoku Basara X, which was another failure. It’s almost like Capcom wasn’t doing well in the fighting game market when it came to new games, especially in the age of Guilty Gear and Melty Blood at the time.

Logically, the MvC franchise wasn’t a good idea to bring back when the second game did not take off in Japan like it did in the US. It wasn’t until SFIV that Capcom actually had success with FGs again. The video game market back then was very different. The fact that you think the reason MvC3 took so long to come out is because MvC2 catered to “neckbeards” is probably one of the most outrageous statements I’ve read in this thread. In fact it’s almost offensive and makes me question if you really have any idea what you’re talking about. I don’t like to have to bring the conversation to that level, but your ignorance on the market then and now is alarming.

I don’t think lack of balance and updates was the only reason but it definately helps promote interest and diversity. All you’ve done here is say that the fighting game market stagnated due to the fact people weren’t buying them instead of looking into the why. SFIV comes along, sells over 2 million and Capcom as a result pushes to make MvC3. What would you propose is the reason behind this phenomenon? What I saw was Capcom taking an active roll instead of just shoveling something out and waiting for shit to evolve on its own.

[Meiz]

Really? Throwing out some random idea and hoping it works is better than letting the game develop and making changes down the road when you have more information? Really?

You’re saying that like they had a wheel 'O nerf, spun it and took the first thing that came up? Really?

[bp_amoco]

I agree, lets get back on topic… I think her hypers are very good such as dirtnap and the level 1 hyper that goes through projectiles, I learned about that one the hard way lol.

What’s x23’s damage on her bnb it’s really low from what I remeber and health wise one good combo from a top tier char and she’s done. She’s fast but she needs like 4 combos to kill a char where she only needs to get hit once and she’s out. Also her poor air mobility/ lack of a true teleport keep her in the b/b+ range.

Also sent drops a bunch now from the A/b+ range to b/c+ range and now people need to be so carefull with the drone assist because of his low health that might be out of the top 5 assists if not top 10. Sent as an anchor is still really dangerous however the health nerf makes it so you can’t spam drones which was his best feature. Anyone who I considered a top tier player didn’t think sent was over powered the only sents I ever lost to were really good scrubs got served. It didn’t “balance” the game at all it just gives the people who are shitty at it the opportunity to move on to bitching about something else they are too lazy to learn to deal with.

Also if they nerfed sent they need to nerf dark phoenix. Although I hope they don’t do it too soon because I switch to her from sent, she’s super broken in 3xf. A+/s tier for sure should be on the top of any list most likely alone.

[Hedgeshot]

The difference between proving God doesn’t exist and proving he does is that the former is asking to prove a negative, which no one can do, and the latter is circular logic. You can say “I can’t prove that god doesn’t exist but it’s not likely to be true based on what I already know”. If I was to spend 63 years of my life waiting by the chimney on the night of December the 24th, I could only say that 100% of my evidence indicates that this is not necessarily so.

Personally I don’t see it as such a detriment. I see something that seems out of place and I want to mold it so that it fits in better with the current model. I’m not saying that there aren’t potential problems in seeking balance either. I’m liking what I’ve seen so far with this initial attempt.

I don’t know. Perhaps overall Sent was the largest mango elephant in the room. I’d like to think that Dark Pheonix will get knocked down a peg in the future and Ryu and Viewtiful see some improvements. Who’s to say other characters won’t have anything modified?

I don’t see how the balance changes are stagnating the evolution of MvC3 though. It’s just allowing it to evolve differently, and with a little guidance, for the better. The difference is that by trying to balance what’s there, you’re actively taking part in trying to make every character viable and as a result opening avenues that weren’t present before. I’m actually anxious to see how the WNF stream will shape up with the recent changes and I doubt they’ll have issues adjusting to the degree everyone seems to be implying

I don’t think lack of balance and updates was the only reason but it definately helps promote interest and diversity. All you’ve done here is say that the fighting game market stagnated due to the fact people weren’t buying them instead of looking into the why. SFIV comes along, sells over 2 million and Capcom as a result pushes to make MvC3. What would you propose is the reason behind this phenomenon? What I saw was Capcom taking an active roll instead of just shoveling something out and waiting for shit to evolve on its own.

Do you prefer frequent balance changes based on series of ill-informed decisions (because players haven’t had enough time to do proper research), or do you want periodic assessments based on a greater wealth of information? Some of the most successful competitive games have followed the periodic formula. Games with some of the worst balance (WoW) follow the former. I can’t even imagine the kind of imbalanced blandness GGAC would be today if everything that seemed too strong got nerfed.

[azproc]

I don’t think lack of balance and updates was the only reason but it definately helps promote interest and diversity. All you’ve done here is say that the fighting game market stagnated due to the fact people weren’t buying them instead of looking into the why. SFIV comes along, sells over 2 million and Capcom as a result pushes to make MvC3. What would you propose is the reason behind this phenomenon? What I saw was Capcom taking an active roll instead of just shoveling something out and waiting for shit to evolve on its own.

SFIV wasn’t patched. Everything from the arcade made it onto the console, pretty much 99.9% arcade perfect other than some sound effects. SFIV sold and was not patched. Super SFIV was done to add characters and rebalance, and is a totally new game in the same way that ST, Hyper Fighting, and Champion Edition were all different games. Capcom let the test of time do its thing with SFIV - Super came out more than a year after SFIV - and was overall a much better game. Super patched out an infinite that was potentially game-breaking, and that’s it. Capcom didn’t take an active role. It made a new and improved game without touching the original. If SFIV was clearly superior, people would still be playing it - but it isn’t and SSFIV becomes the standard.

MvC3 patched out Sentinel that was nowhere near game-breaking by any stretch of the imagination, a mere month after release. Sure patch out infinites that could potentially break the game and due to stuff we haven’t discovered yet. Fine. But taking such a drastic change away - health - and not providing an evidence base for the change is ridiculous. If Capcom were to come with a major update a year down the line or even 6 months based on tournament results, this would be much better.

TLDR: We play the game because we expect our skills to progress such that the game we’re playing in the upcoming tournament 2 weeks from now is the same game we’re playing today. To rekindle interest, sure patch it out after it’s got a decent time to grow. But one month is way too fast.

[SynikaL]

“Circular logic”? Are you fucking kidding me? Please STFU. It’s more argument from tradition than begging any questions; which while not entirely logical, is completely reasonable given the history of these games. Making adjustments without knowledge of all the potential variables can be seen as equally circular by your very own reasoning.

[Nobus3r1]

I don’t know. Perhaps overall Sent was the largest mango elephant in the room. I’d like to think that Dark Pheonix will get knocked down a peg in the future and Ryu and Viewtiful see some improvements. Who’s to say other characters won’t have anything modified?

No, you don’t know. Your examples of why Sentinel needed to be nerfed seemed to confuse prevalence with dominance. The point that everyone has been trying to get through to you is that we’ll never know if Sentinel was in fact the bogeyman that many where making him out to be or if he was just a very strong character or if he wasn’t even that good.

I don’t see how the balance changes are stagnating the evolution of MvC3 though. It’s just allowing it to evolve differently, and with a little guidance, for the better. The difference is that by trying to balance what’s there, you’re actively taking part in trying to make every character viable and as a result opening avenues that weren’t present before. I’m actually anxious to see how the WNF stream will shape up with the recent changes and I doubt they’ll have issues adjusting to the degree everyone seems to be implying

Not stagnating but making it unpredictable. And as many have mentioned those who are actually going to stick with the game over the long haul don’t want unpredictable. Also IMO this wasn’t much of a balance change as the characters that had trouble against Sentinel will still have trouble but with maybe a hair of a better chance and the characters that owned him will simply do so faster (as in literally taking less time, i.e. less Amaterasu cold shots to the face). Actual balance would have been a much broader set of changes that would have lessened dominance in good matchups and improved the bad matchups.

[Dime]

[quote]

I’m going to be honest here and say I’m not exactly sure how to discuss “circular logic” with you. It feels like an argument I cannot win because of the nature of it, similar to religious people asking people to prove God does NOT exist, rather than they themselves cannot offer proof that he does.

lol, thats beacuse hes the one using circular logic.

let me define it for you guys: circular logic is where someone uses logical fallacies to support something which is in itself fallacious. ie using a lie or half truth to support another one.

in laymens terms it goes in circles cause it has no defined end or variable… ie CIRCULAR.

when we say that the game hasnt been been out long enough we are not using circular logic because we are starting out from a defined variable, which, in this case, is the games state upon release as well as when the release was. those are concrete terms.

he can not argue that we are using circular logic when we say that his point is moot simply cause the patch ALSO has only been out for minutes/days/whatever amount of time. why? cause our DEFINED VARIABLE takes place first. it is what is being argued.

so, basically, when he argues about “well take your own example and apply it to the patch” hes the one using circular logic cause his point has no end… it can go on as “and apply it to this, then apply it to that, then apply it to this”… ie CIRCULAR.

lol circular logic seems to be the new argument equivilent of mashing reversals. dont know what to say? argue circular logic and strawman, not an invalid tactic, but one should actually know what they mean.

-dime

[bp_amoco]

Seriously why are you guys commenting on what some gamefaqs scrub thinks it seems like all the players who know what’s up are in agreement too soon and poorly thought out ignore anyone who says otherwise.

[Renegade]

I think x-23 should be a lot higher on your list renegade, She low vitality and shitty overheads are what make her less then perfect, but she is just so blazingly fast and has incredible mix up game and with the right assists i think she can body anyone but wesker

I agree, lets get back on topic… I think her hypers are very good such as dirtnap and the level 1 hyper that goes through projectiles, I learned about that one the hard way lol.

X-23 is good! She’s in the B list, which i defined as “In the right hands can absolutely body people, but has some matchup problems”

Needing a level 1 super in order to get through projectiles isn’t a good thing btw. And i’m pretty sure she’ll stop cold if she hits an assist w/ it right?

She’s there with She-Hulk, Spencer, Dorm, Morrigan, and Chun. I think that’s really fair.

She certainly isn’t as good as the List B+: Storm, Wolvie, Trish, Sent, Akuma. Taskmaster, Zero.

[Neiburo]

Too early to patch? Yes, most likely.
Do I care and will I whine about it? No
Do I like the patch? Yes, because you ppl here are hilarious.

[Kef]

What do you think about the Sent patch Renegade? Did he drop on your list, if so how much? I think he would fit now with that list with Chun and x-23.

[janoDX]

Renegade, you can get X-23 one spot up and Sent one down. Sent is still a great character but now if it’s backup.

[Shiizu]

I feel a lot of the “tier lists” i’m seeing here are heavily sided towards characters with much simpler execution than the characters with steeper learning curves. But I guess that’s expected seeing as it has only been a month since release.

X-23 has limited options getting through projectiles and has to burn meter in order to do it effectively, but atleast she HAS options. What does Wolverine have? His aerial options are worse than X-23, and his hypers don’t do him any good. Berserker Slash only goes through stuff if you’re close enough to the opponent.