whip is far from useless. During any point of the match you nail the okami shuffle, the opponent will be knocked down. During this time you can easily switch to whip, assist (drones or missiles), cold star, assist hits, cold star again, for some really good chip damage. Cold star with assist is really good, not unbeatable or broken, but good because of the fact you can actually do decent damage (100k) and /or chip. If Ammy crouches she can evade a lot of projectiles allowing her to cold star again. If cold star hits the opponent anywhere from 2/6 to 5/6 off the screen you can cancel into the okami shuffle for (350k) damage. That’s not bad considering it’s almost a fullscreen punish. Add to that the fact that you are always going to be able to chip them after the shuffle for (150k) makes whip a viable option. Yeah the whip is anything but useful in combos, but it does have these uses.
Calling an assist, superjumping with the whip cancelled into qcf+l or m is good for running away and covering a big portion of the screen. It gives you a lot of time to recuperate (pending on the assist) and change stances.
Ammy’s best assist has to be Missiles, followed by Drones for the reasons aforementioned.
Chrisis: Do you play online? That was some good stuff.
The thing is for that chip setup, you’re giving up oki though, which could lead to a lot more damage. I mean it’s not bad, 150 for free, but oki maintains advantage and can lead to higher damage. Maybe I’m just not a whip stance guy but I’ve been very unimpressed with what it can do so far.
Viper has the same problems Dhalsim had in MVC2. Dhalsim in theory had all of the tools to be good. Dhalsim had FSDs, combos that carried full screen, a fast trijump and unfly. He also had good priority. But you never saw anyone, besides a few really bother with him. Why? Because for every tool Sim had, Magneto and Storm had the same tool and could to it better.
Viper’s main problem is that you HAVE to play her first and on point. But other point characters give her issues. Mangeto, another popular point character can pretty much zone her out for free. And at the start of the match she has little to no meter, meaning she’ll have to go in. Good luck doing that against a good and lame Magneto. There is also Wolverine who can blow her up from a good guess or two. Bottomline is that Viper will not be moving up because of where she need to be in the team. Sure she may have a high execution curve that could be overcome, but we’ve seen prohibitive execution become a real issue in games. Sim had this very problem. Sim could SJC his normals, but it took two frames to get it to connect. It’s to tight of a window to do it consistently in a real match. Viper will always be dangerous in the right hands, but this doesn’t mean she’ll ever be going anywhere.
I kind of agree there. Viper has potential but does that hard work to pull it out of her give her any more options that characters like wolverine and magneto don’t already have, at a much easier rate?
Viper and Dhalsim have parallels, but that’s not the reason why Dhalsim wasn’t viable. He actually had tools to do things as good or better than Magneto or Storm, just to get that level of reward the level of execution you needed was incredibly high. On offense he had tools they didn’t like command grab and neutral state unblockables and on zoning few would contest the powers of his air roundhouse. Akin to Viper you needed to work much harder to accomplish something simple like a cross up tri-jump though for Dhalsim it was because his dash was way too fast and normals were unwieldy.
I do not feel Viper needs to be played on point. I feel that’s the best spot for her but there are multiple ways to have her in the second spot for highly invincible reversal DHCs or high damage OTG DHCs to end combos a lot of characters don’t have access to. I’ve gotten in against a lot of good Magnetos, people mistake ‘getting in’ for meaning that they need to move from the opposite side of the screen into Magneto’s face which is simply wrong, Viper needs to get in approximately half a dash distance to start up her incredibly strong counter-zoning tools, her match up with Magneto is 5-5 both die in 1 hit at close range, Magneto dies from 1 hit at mid range, and Viper will take more chip if at absolutely full screen. I’ve covered this match up pretty extensively in Viper’s matchup thread. If your goal is just to rush down and you don’t think about space control it’s a bad match, if you just try to maintain an advantageous spacing then do damage when the opportunities present themselves it’s far easier.
Wolverine has a bad match up against Viper, he needs to hit her twice or burn X-factor to kill her and has a decently hard time getting in depending on her assists. She on the other hand on zoning is at a strong advantage and at mid to short range only needs to hit him once without X-factor to kill him. Her mix up although harder to execute is just as hard to block and she has actual get off me options that work against Wolverine unlike the vast majority of the cast.
Most characters in MvC2 could SJC their normals why it was crazy with Dhalsim is the positioning and follow ups. A lot of people could SJC a long range poke, practically no other could convert that on hit into a dead character via SJC + the fastest air dash in the game. The difficulty of SJCing his normals varies, I rarely if ever miss his stand roundhouse SJC but his ranged crouch strong SJC is much much harder.
Viper has a lot more practically applied things than Dhalsim, she has an execution barrier but it’s not like him where to get 1 combo off of stand forward you need 3 incredibly tight links just to get it to continue. Almost all of Viper’s problems vanish when she stops relying on normals, especially 2B.
Viper’s options are much stronger than Mags and wolvie, but I still feel Magneto’s the most stable character in the game with the least bad match ups, but I feel Viper has more important good match ups that she wins by a greater amount.
Strongest team is a stretch. Tron/Lariat assist puts a huge dent in this teams main game plan, and since all 3 chars have pixie health, killing them from a Gustaff/Lariat is easy as fuck. Sentinel as an anchor is aight, but he’s really easy to run away against once you escape the 2M/Command Grab/Airthrow mix up in the corner.
Best anti-wolverine combo IMO is Trish + Jam Session. Good luck getting in. Getting impatient? Dive kick>DHC glitch>kthxbye.
It’s a really strong team though, but nearly all the top 10-15 combinations are really strong teams as well.
People are too lazy these days and don’t try to care to find these things out themselves which is kind of sad. Im not trying to say you are lazy Samruai lol so don’t think I am flaming you. But I think it just kind of goes to show you what a certain scene is about when they just go for the easy lazy results instead of trying to explore other potential things in a game. I mean if you are making bank in your local scene winning with Wolveirne/Wesker/Akuma then by all means keep chasing that green. But when you are rarely placing in the money in LOCAL tournies or are strictly an online player why not go out and try to learn some of the more difficult characters who might have the same tools as a couple easier ones?
If you feel like your personal execution barrier can’t overcome certain characters toolset that is understandable as well. I just don’t see what people have against going into the training room and actually practicing/putting in some work. Who knows, you may have found a hidden gem that you didn’t see before because you didn’t want to come out of your Claw/Shades shell.
Yeah I feel you on that. I don’t even think that viper is all that hard at mid level. Her 600-700k combos really aren’t hard at all… but she definitely doesn’t have any good normals to just throw out there, it almost feels like she just has to mash seismo lol. I think the real difficulty is just applying her in a match. A lot of characters have obvious applications of her moves but then with Viper, it’s not obvious or intuitive with what you’re supposed to do with her, so that may be what shys a lot of players away from her. It’s probably why we only see a few top, smart players with her even trying at the moment.
I still don’t even really know what she wants to do in a match… mash seismo > profit? I know that’s oversimplifying it but what the hell does viper do? Her role is not clear like Wolvie, Mags, etc etc. Her character design doesn’t have any obvious strengths that jump out at a player other than jump cancelability to maintain pressure.
I agree with Nini that Trish with certain assists dominates Wolverine. I think Trish beats out most of the ground based characters really hard (fairly good match against Viper, completely destroys Wolverine and She-hulk.)
Also, recently a friend and I were talking about tier placement and he said something I was raving about was different like a month ago. So I decided to look back at the beginning of this thread and see where Viper was being placed and in the first 5 tier lists she is either the worst character or worst 4.
Renegade has her a whole tier below Hsien-Ko as the worst character, OP has the worst 6 as: Storm, Trish, Viper, Chris, Spidey, Phoenix. Ultradavid has her as the worst character in the game. JanoDX has her as second worst. And many others. I hope people at least acknowledge her trend for improvement. >.>;
She actually did the same thing in SF4. At first she was considered one of the worst, then saw some success from smart players and rocketed to top tier… then the hype died down and she ended up just being mid / upper mid.
Lol thats pretty funny didn’t the same shit happen when vanilla dropped? Everything thought Viper was one of the worst and she turned out to be pretty good haha. People saw they could headbutt into ultra with Rog or Uppercut for 7000 damage with Sagat and Viper was like “Lol I have to press more buttons? Cancelling moves? No thanks, low tier”.
I hope she makes it in SFxTekken so that she can start off as one of the worst characters in that game too :nunchuck:
The OP doesn’t even come here anymore, he went back to Brawl I’m pretty sure. That’s why I wanted a new thread before.
Anyway, I’m starting to agree with a lot of Keranata/Kerahime’s tier list. Zero is retarded, IDK how he’s so low on everyone’s list. The lighting loop isn’t even hard either, so it has nothing to do with execution.
How about snapping Trish out, killing Dante, then rushing down Trish without worrying about Jam Session? Assuming that we aren’t talking about someone like Eddie Lee here, I think it’s pretty unrealistic that you are going to play a game as wild as Marvel 3 and not get hit by anything. I also do think it would be a viable strategy to harrass with a beam assist or drones, eventually Dante is going to take too much damage to keep being used as a wall. You could also time advances in between Dante’s Jam Sessions’ and because Trish has low vitality and doesn’t deal a ton of damage without XFactor or an OTG assist, it’s really a low risk/high reward for Wolvie to just get in there on Trish. There is also the rare possiblity that Wolverine has a teamate or two that is better equipped to deal with Trish/Jam Session, and Wolvie could just get out of there until his teamates have killed either Dante or Trish.
My point isn’t that the Trish/Dante zoning combo isn’t viable, because it might be; I’m just saying everything seems easier in a bubble with no variables.
The whole point is that Trish is aircamping with Hopscotch and Peekaboo while also throwing out Jam Session and Low voltages. If Wolvie can get through that and hit Trish…then and only then does your post begin to make sense. And even then, if Wolvie screws up while trying to get in, or he calls out Sent when he’s right in the range for Maximum Voltage…you’re probably screwed.
You gotta tell me how Tatsu/Beam assist is gonna help wolverine get around Trish’s traps and projectiles when she’s 10 feet above the ground and there’s this giant pillar of lightning that separates you from her while she’s raining lightning down on yo ass and yo assist as well.
Oh yeah Trish can initiate the DHC glitch and her bnbs deal around 600-700k with one meter, so once again, lol @ low damage.
I’m not just theorizing also by the way. Trish’s keepaway is annoying as fuck(not impossible) to get around if you don’t have a fly or teleport, and she can easily transition from zoning to rushdown to catch you off guard and kill you.