MvC3 Actual Balance/Potential Tiers Discussion

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
5681

Nah a good magneto with the right assist can make doing anything pretty hard on Dante. Trick to magnus really seems to be zoning with disruptor spam + assist in a lot of matchups. Dante’s only options in this scenario are teleport which depending on the assist and how severe magneto can punish a wrong guess makes things hard. EM disruptor zoning also beats most assists out because it hits them. It’s not an unbeatable tactic, but very effective especially considering any point the assist projectile is about to collide magnus is so fast he can swoop in for a quick High/Low/Throw mixup that can kill you with DHC glitch. Magnus+Sent combo destroys every character without an air-dash for free.

Edit: Also hammer does hit behind him and is probably his best nuetral game tool besides st. A. (5A). Wrecks soooo much shit.

5682

Well damn if I had known that I woulda been using it way more. Time to level up my Dante some more haha.

5683

Hammer is like easily the best move in the game and leads to easy TODs. It’s hitbox is fucking huge, like 360 degrees and some more and gives you massive invuln.

5684

Yeah Hammer is pretty stupid. Especially if you do it low to the ground. I’ve been trying to work on TK hammer stuff at close range.

The main thing Dantes will need to be doing to augment their offense is using the bold cancels whenever you whiff a ground normal. Dante normally has laggy whiff recovery on his ground normals but he can do the same thing X23 can by cancelling his normals on whiff (except he has to do it with a command jump with some vulnerable frames at start up). This allows him to continue an offense if he whiffs a normal and cover it with hammer or another air special anytime he wants. Hammering or going into air normals off of bold cancels makes it so you dont have to worry as much about sticking laggy stand normals out to anti air.

5685

Hammer is somewhat slow startup when factoring in the cancel off Killer Bee, right? I know it’s been discussed before but I don’t remember on which page.

5686

The power in the move is not so much the start up which is a bit lengthy sure. It’s power comes from the fact that once you get a hammer active on the screen you can’t touch him until he lands if he does it low enough to the ground. Which is about regular jump height. He just passes through everything you try to hit him with, can’t air throw him but he can still hit you and put you in a ground bounce into free combo. The recovery on whiff is like near zero also. The invincibility frames are so strong once they are active he can pass through the invincible frames of Ryu’s H shoryuken or even go through Captain America’s Hyper Stars and Stripes. If you wait too long to start up the hammer against those moves they will win but if you get past the 15 or so start up frames and get it active you’ll just pass through shit.

5687

i think many things being considered way to early especially characters. I think we’ve yet to see what STRATEGYS dominate the game. Right now rush down is considered best because people think its safe. This flow need to be counter balance with good defense to intimate rusher not to be car less. Tag guard cancel seem to accomplish this the best way how ever it is also way underrated at the moment. I find choosing right assist that can be follow up to supers or gamble with x factor can produce alot of interesting stuff.Right now it seems costing but to change the momentum in game that one mistake can end a match seems worth it.

right now though not fully explore i think MVC3 is balance due to the diversity of style possible. Obviously some characters are stronger in certain areas but combine with diverse team and system. seems like a perfect match.

5688

another fun trick with dante using the hammer.
u can double overhead ure opponent in the corner, provided they are blocking an assist (since everyone mashes on pushblock lol).

ex : opponent blocks drones on the ground - > jump fierce, then cancel into hammer. dirty stuff : )

5689

My Zero dishes out 700k+ on hit too usually. I still have him a bit below my top dogs for now. Just right below.

5690

Fuck Zero. Where my nigga X at?

5691

Almost, it’s Mags Wolvie Akuma, so Mags can DHC glitch into Wolvie.

Yes I play this team, and yes it’s retarded good. No I have no shame.

5692

double facepalm then. seriously… read what you wrote.

if practically nobody is beasting with viper right now…

HOW IN THE FUCK CAN YOU SAY SHES S TIER… RIGHT NOW?

shit just doesnt make sense to tier on “potential” until potential is realized. goes without saying that any tier list should be a snapshot of what is going on RIGHT NOW.
not tomorrow, not next week or a year from now.

i’m all for the viper has shittons of potential camp, i agree with that assessment.

BUT… when i see both marlins and chrisis’ vipers (i havent seen THAT many matches of either) what i usually see is viper dying to some tod about 70% of the time, and the other 30% of the time she goes godlike on some random poor fucker.

in my estimation the highest tier characters all have a certain percentage chance of ocv’ing entire teams, either from the start like a wolverine, or in a reverse fashion like XF3 DPH. i havent seen many viper ocv’s (non that i can think of) whereas ive seen it from wolvie,mags,phoenix and wesker ALL the time. and its the same with dante… cant remember when i last saw him ocv’ing a team.

as it is right now, wolvie is such a threat that people are even willing to state that blowing a lvl1 xf on him just to get rid of the problem when hitting a non optimal combo starter, is actually a valid strategy.

im not saying that either character hasnt ocv’d entire teams… im sure they have, i just dont think they are nearly as much of a threat to do it as the aforementioned characters AT THIS POINT. later on in the games life? who knows. but tiering on “tools” and not results should only be done when its to find a mid tier or lower characters position… and then only because of a lack of lots of games played and studyable of the highest caliber.

viper and dante s tier one day? maybe.
right now? results dont show it AT ALL.

-dime

5693

I really still can’t see the OMFG VIPER IS LIKE GOD.
the seismo, if it was nerfed would make her shit.
her instant million damage set ups are still lost on me and 98% of the people who play the game. her input is without me having to be the best at this game the most difficult in the game. bar none.

everytime you guys mention viper being god, you are assuming the person you’re facing is brain dead or incompetent. The opponent will be moving, they will not be in the corner, they will guard, they will have assists, they will have x-factor.

I have yet to see vipers potential to entirely shut the game down for any and everything that approaches her.

The fact that you specifically said “thinking isn’t necessary”, show me how the hell you sjc and cancel moves without thinking. the fact that a string of seismos requires more speed then FFF in combos from the sf4 series leads me to believe this is all theory fighter. It can be done but its EXTREMELY difficult and the farthest thing from practical.

Just raising what i believe to be true. My execution simply cannot reach what you guys believe is simple enough to be game breaking.
I think she has the potential to go far. in a year to 3 we may see that one person who has the execution ability to use viper here and there win disgustingly with her occasionally, but they will likely have a team of the actual characters with all round great tools and win constantly with that team.

5694

I’ve seen Dante clean up 2 characters pretty easy in a lot of matches. A lot of characters struggle to kill off two quickly but he’s definitely among the set that can blow at least 2 up very easily. One character OCV’s are possible if you get the first 2 any ways because you can just XF1 kill the third if you ever get 2 without XF.

No character should ever completely run through a team because all it takes is one guard cancel or something random from XF3 and in a lot of cases you see some sort of comeback before a team gets totally thrashed on. Sometimes OCV’s can happen in this game but as people are getting more accustomed to the XF system it only seems to be getting more rare if anything.

5695

Nah, I’d still say Wolvie Mags Akuma, just because you can still aerial THC into Magneto for the DHC glitch…back into Wolvie.

Ugh.

5696

@Dime_x: A significant chunk of my matches with Viper posted in places are either OCVs or OCV until the third character x-factors and presses 5 buttons. Viper’s tools are actually more OCV-centric than most, you do not want her to be on point against you when a character dies thanks to the amount of damage you eat if she doesn’t screw up her unblockable set ups.

As for results looking at some numbers I can posit my opinion.

If you look at the ratio of people playing with Wolverine in a tournament to the number of people placing top 8 with Wolverine in a tournament it’s pretty abysmal because of the saturation of Wolverine. Per entrant playing Viper who enters a tournament she has an incredibly good record. Stating that she hasn’t been showing results is false. The largest thing I’ve taken top 5 at for Marvel was Hadocon, and Marlin’s taken top 5 at I believe the recent large guard crush, tying just under Yipes if I’m not mistaken.

So back to that numbers thing, if 60 Wolverines enter a tournament and 3 get top 8 and 4 Vipers enter that same tournament and 2 get top 8 I think that either leads to the conclusion that on average more skilled players choose Viper, she’s a stronger character, or it’s a fluke. I don’t feel her placements thus far have been flukes or a gravitation of strong players.

@Theautophobia( Interesting name by the way, something about fearing oneself? o.o):
Her instant million damage combos are combos not set ups, she gets them off of the same situation Mags would she just doesn’t DHC trick to do it. I hit these against moving opponents with X-factor and assists who block some waves of her assault, documented on Starbase streams semi-regularly and this is from someone who doesn’t have a console for training mode accessible at home.

About not seeing it yet, as stated there are barely any streamed players who play Viper at this point it’s very difficult to see a character being played their best if only 4 people will play her.

I disagree with your statement about thinking. Execution and thinking aren’t the same thing. In CvS2 do you need to make any decisions to paint the fence? No, do you need to have the execution? Absolutely. I feel the two are entirely separate categories.

Understanding space control is infinitely more important than having good execution with Viper, a robot with her can do things that are really stupid and effective, an intelligent but non dexterous person can still get incredibly effective play out of her that just isn’t scratching the things that make her destroy the rest of the cast.

@Deviljin:
Viper is one of the few characters where X-factoring out of her block stun isn’t terribly efficient if she’s near the ground thanks to her invincible safe on block move that shouldn’t exist. >.<

5697

@DJ01

… yeah, it goes without saying that ocv’s (even in this game) are rare in general.

but when you see them, what characters do you see them coming from the MOST?
when you see 2 for 1’s, what characters do you see it from most?
its pretty obvious to me.

any character can get an ocv or a 2fer once in a blue moon. im just putting it out there that the top characters have MUCH higher ratios of games played to ocv’s and 2fers than lower/midtier ones… and yes, in a game whos damage is as high as this games is… percentages have to be used. even mags and wolvie have those random odd games that they die in before doing much damage to the first character… the point is though that it happens to them LESS. from what ive seen, vipers die ALOT without having contributed much to there team in the form of meter gained or a dead opponent character.

-dime

5698

I think Vipers dying a lot has to do more so with the fact that she’s rather meter hungry to do anything that can control space without execution. She also has poor normals for spacing so without meter her options to protect herself are a bit limited. If you screw up in your execution you could probably open up some holes to get beat up. Yet you have to take into account that there’s plenty of other characters that constantly open up more holes from themselves than Viper also.

Somebody with stupid easy shit to throw around like Wolvie or Wesker will get their lucky break and run a couple mix ups and knock her out fast. Either way with Viper’s ability to flood the screen with special moves that take up most of the screen space and EX special moves that basically get people the fuck off of her she has the potential to run through teams. I’ve seen Viper blow up 2 and 3 characters more often than most of the other cast. Not as much as Wolvie or Wesker, but certainly more often than Chris or Spider Man. This is considering it’s very likely the potential of the character has yet to be reached.

The character by default inherently has the ability to kill off 2 characters easy because a lot of the cast pretty much has to run into her unblockable set up with an assist after a downed character.

There’s only like 3 Vipers any way and only like 2 of them are srs bzns. This is considering how many random ass Weskers and Wolvies there are mainly because they require less work and thought to just scrape up a team. The two Vipers that I have seen have done more 2 character blow ups and OCV’s than I’ve seen from at least a good 60 percent of the cast. I’ve seen plenty less OCV’s and 2 character kills from Ammy and she’s widely considered top 5 or 10.

5699

Actually Vipers ToD combos are pretty much meter neutral or leave you with a bar in the tank depending on how much life you have to work through. So you can use that meter for EX Siesmo (which is stupid good), emergency combination, or other stuff. Viper is retarded broken, though I’m not convinced she’s more retarded broken than the other god characters.

5700

The most common reasons for Viper to die:

She’s using an ineffective tool for what she wants. Normally in the form of 2B. Most commonly trying to counter poke a normal with a normal.
She failed execution (F-champ, Dacidbro and others are decent at opening me up, but I still have more deaths on Viper’s side from whiffing what was intended to be a combod fierce TK feint and getting whiffed fierce TK.)
She made an incredibly bad read and didn’t have the execution and or gauge necessary to fix it.
She wasn’t using one of her tools that makes a situation safe. IE focus cancel instant throw, EX seismic against tri-jumps etc.

How many of those are related to Viper having issues in relation to how many are the player making mistakes?

As for 2 for one deals, it’s another reason seismic hammer and EX seismic hammer are stupid, they give a lot of situations where hitting assists and point characters happen commonly. and this is without taking into account the fact that she gets a very scary set up on kills.

For things relating to meter the higher a viper’s execution the more meter she gains and the less meter she needs to use. Proper seismic zoning builds gauge faster than any other zoning technique in the game and her combos range from at low levels negative gauge, at mid levels gauge neutral, and at good levels incredibly gauge positive. Her and Dante are very similar in the fact that they can choose to randomly use gauge to enhance what they’re already really good at, it’s just with Viper her things to build back the gauge are either execution intensive or non intuitive.