MvC3 Actual Balance/Potential Tiers Discussion

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
5701

im quite honestly flabbergasted here… dont really know what to say…
i mean, stating why a character sucks doesnt make that character NOT SUCK.

if i say: "well yeah the real reason why hsien ko sucks is because she lacks damage and has shitty normals"
doesnt magically make those problems disappear… are you trying to say that if viper had infinite meter she would be a bettter character?

i could name 36 characters that could use infinite meter, or just more of it. so its a moot point, and does nothing to further any argument that viper should be considered anywhere near the best character in this game at this moment in time…

no one with half a brain will argue vipers undeniable potential.

@chrisis:

i hear you man, and maybe im being bit biased on old match videos as i havent seen much of yours or marlins newest matches from the last month or so.

but the matches of yours that i did see generally went:

viper dies twice in a row not having done much, and then has a “good” game by killing one character and maybe wounding or killing another.

or

viper kills one character and wounds another. then dies 2 or 3 times in a row.

maybe im just tripping.
but as far as no one to support her, i think you are making a mistake by not thinking that its good players making her good rather than, just her being good. i definitely DONT think shes a fluke at all. yet you talk about yourself and marlin taking 5th or something like that, as if 5th (or second) place is some holy grail that makes a character that manages to get there automatically S TIER… i mean there are LOTS of midtier characters that have WON tournaments… spencer? ironman? sentinel?

shit didnt a cap and hsienko ON THE SAME team make it to 3rd place or higher at wnf? are they now way better than there tier placements or did a good player just find characters that mesh with his personal abilities well… (think yebs gen on console sf4)

anywho actual results should be first and foremost. viper is in my mind a straight up mid tier character MAYBE high midtier character… both of which can take first place in competeive tournaments at this point in time on this game.

-dime

5702

I look at tools. I don’t give a shit what people are doing with anybody right now because the american scene is ridiculously lazy and close minded

5703

which means that your tier list is complete theory fighter ie “champagne wishes and caviar dreams”

-dime

5704

Some recent matches:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S2ZN1EKIUI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDrAtXZD8I0

http://www.justin.tv/iplaywinner/b/287189385
Though with Justin.tv if I have to hear this ad one more time about the smart meter I will be enraged. XD
part 2 1:12:22 and 1:53:11 note that on the matches Viper dies adjacent to them the previously mentioned whiffed fierce thunderknuckle in bloody half of them. --;
Also ignore my day 9 Dante.

5705

but can you blame them? why choose viper who takes ridiculous amount of time to get even “decent” with her when you can pick up wolverine and clean house after like 3 hours of practice? when people go to tournaments, they obviously want to win so they choose the tools that can land them that W while making it easy as possible.

5706

It’s only like that because the game is so new though. Once people get better/more consistent with Zero, Viper, Dante, etc the people getting free rides from abusing easy mode characters like Wolvie will stop placing in tourneys and be forced to actually learn to play. It happened to Noel Brown when he was playing his old team (Dorm/Sent/Doom).

5707

Viper is too retarded of a character in actual practice to be a maybe mid high tier. The shit she is capable of just in theory is better than most of the cast and in practice I’ve also seen people do more stupid good shit with Viper than most of the cast. Half the cast just in a theory state dont even add up to what she has on paper so far. The fact that you’d even have to think about her being mid high tier is pretty funny.

5708

Someone will say Vanilla Sagat.

It’s a pretty sketchy example, but tournaments aren’t exactly the most rigorous test of character strength.

5709

I hate how people discredit these discussions as if theory has never been put into practice before.

DHC glitch has entire teams built around it, Xfactor guard canceling is a common occurrence with lvl3 xfactor (would like to see it be more common with lower levels just to punish stupid shit though), speedboosting supers are being combined with x-factors (even lvl1 factor) to make ridiculous combos and mixups, and people set up unblockables on a consistent basis. Hell, the other day I saw a Sentinal player crossover counter against a beam super and cancel into hard drive from full screen. If something is good and doable (and this word extends to basically everything we’ve said about Viper), eventually someone will take the effort to become consistent with it, and that’s exactly what we’re seeing with players like Marlinpie or Chrisis.

The things talked about in this viper discussion have all been demonstrated in actual matches. It’s just rather early in the game’s lifespan and people still need practice, which there’s no shortcut for (minus picking up an easier character, which most people are doing).

5710

^ actually we plink our 1 frame in ssf4 to make them essentially 2 frame links. so we basically took the easier and more effective route. just like how people picked up wolverine over viper. is he as effective as her? going by results he would be more effective. but in theory, probably not.

5711

You played really well man, your Viper is super solid. It’s too bad your ran into Phoenix though. For my money you’re head and shoulders better than FChamp. You practically perfected him that one time he lost Phoenix early.

5712

I Whole heartedly agree on that. Tier list is based off real results. Some people think of tier lists differently, some people factor in their useful assist, other people factor it on the individual character, and some others factor it as a whole team. Tier list should mostly be about the individual character and how that character performs.

5713

That’s hardly taking the easy way out though. That’s just not learning something that is ultimately not going to be profitable (learning the timing for the 1 frame link when you can get the same result though another method). It’s easily conclusive that plinking your links is superior to…not plinking them, since you get the same combos except one method is easier. That can’t be said about learning Wolverine over Viper, since it’s unknown how good Viper actually is. Though by the looks of it, taking the time to learn Viper should make her at least AS good as Wolverine, and with a style very, very different (some people just naturally understand certain styles better, so picking a character who’s “worse” may actually be better for them because it might be a better fit with how they think).

5714

great matches! thanks for uploading them. i like to see great play from underused characters.

i also looked at this match versus f-champ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upP7YDtqgKU&feature=relmfu

had it not been a phoenix team… viper would have been tod’d on many occasions… but i digress, thats nitpicking.

i’m still seeing a mid/high mid tier charascter in all of those matches… but i know im in the minority… the way players are here someone can just throw up some combo vid of modok beasting on people and all of a sudden folks think hes a beast…

it may sound like hating… just remember that when i think of an s-tier character i think of a character that is damn near unbeatable… ie DPH xf3 phoenix… which i believe to be the only s-tier character (mags close second)

one thing to mention is that even with your ridiculously great viper play there… you still didnt win the tournament and even lost to drumroll… : chris…
but thats DEFINITELY nitpicking.

mainly whta i see here is you seemingly outplaying f-champ as well as the chris player and the matches being closer than what they should have been.
i dont think thats a point FOR viper… but that could just be me.
your play here has definitely made me think more highly of her though. not that i ever contended that she didnt have great tools (remember back in the day when i was the only person that defended your stance about viper actually being good?) lol how quickly people forget.

i didntthink she would come along this quickly though… in a month or 2 i may support viper for s-tier… not yet though.

chrisis, on a different note i noticed a new neutral game pattern from your viper in those matches… mainly superjump> ADDF as a means to get in.

is that a really good pattern for her to use? it looked highly effective from where im sitting.

also in other random news Dimes POTENTIAL s-tier completely theory fighter dont bother reading into it at all list:

s-tier
phoenix on point
modok
viper
dormamu

maybe storm

in no particular order.

-dime

5715

I agree with Dormammu being S tier. His zoning with the right assist is stupid, he’s got great damage, unblockable setups on incoming characters that don’t require an assist like Viper, he can rush, control space, and in x factor level three… yeah… fucking chaotic flame. If he has meters and the last character is coming in, they’re as good as dead. You can just x factor level 3 stalking flare over and over and over. Unless it’s like thor or some shit, they’re gone. He’s also an amazing counter to phoenix. Corner > Flame Carpet > Stalking flare / Pillars = dead bird city.

I just recently switched Ammy out for Dorm, and dear god has my consistency with wins gone way the hell up.

Which… transitioning to that topic, I really really really don’t think Ammy is top tier. She’s got tons of tools but most of them are mediocre and her damage is pathetic compared to most of the cast. At best, situationally, FOR 2 METERS, she does like 700k in the corner, while in sword stance… really now? Wolverine can hit you with some random 2A with no meter and do more than that. Then after getting like 12 openings to kill a character, someone flicks Ammy and she’s out. Not to mention her assist is super easy to punish and with her low health, she’s going down quick. She is solid, upper mid. But not S tier…

5716

naw ima have to disagree there… if we are tiering on potential i also think ammy has s-tier potential ( i only left characters out that were already considered high for a long time) if we look at ammys potential the bitch has barely had her surface scratched. NO ONE is using wepon switch starters besides like maybe ryan hunter. NO one is using all of her stances very effectively and switching on the fly well. NO ONE is using her whip stance as a starter and switching midcombo to glaive or disk stance to utilize those stances better combo opportunities… (she really doesnt have much for combo ability in whip stance which is why being able to confirm from whip to glaive or disk is of utmost importance)

when we tier for potential the skys the limit for like a quarter of the cast to potentially be s-tier… i mean dante has like a billion moves…

-dime

5717

the only one i agree with on the potential S-tier list would be Phoenix on point i mean just super jump fireball all day with hidden missiles or drones or something and watch as you body 60% of the cast for FREE!!

i could see Modok,Dorm and Viper(maybe even Doom,jill, and tron) being A tier eventually. And Joe,Spiderman,Thor as B tier eventually

5718

COMPLETELY TRUE! however since we are tiering on potential we can all live in the land of fairytales and fireflies and make up our own tier lists and then argue tools! fun! everyone should make one!

-dime

5719

No, not really. She can do 700k in glaive stance for one meter, pretty much anywhere.

5720

@Duckstrong:
Praise from you is amazing indeed! Thank you for the kind words. ^.^ It’s hilarious that I’ve recently moved closer to your position on Doom thanks to how amazing some other characters are, I still put him as tenth though. I’m looking forward to evnentually getting down your Taskmaster B&B it’s superior to what’s currently out there and I like efficiency!

As for Champ, he’s an amazing player with great tournament experience and has clutched it out against me so many times it’s like a gift. I honestly can’t think of anyone else who’s been as solid as him under pressure. I have a habit of getting through 2 of his characters sometimes even murdering Phoenix early, then having him stop making any mistakes and get blown up. >.<

@Dime_X:
I do remember you defending that she was not ass tier as many preliminary tier lists placed her.

Some clarifications that are really important to me tiering Viper:
I do not have a console.
I do not have access to the game.
I do not have training mode.
I need to bum games with my awesome friends in order to get any practice.

Viper is literally the worst possible character for me to have chosen with these circumstances. If I were able to go into training mode even for like 2 hours a week or so I would have much more advanced Viper technology. The fact that with my play at this remedial level she’s still competitive against every top tier character should say something important.

I have a lot of things written up in the Viper forums in various statuses and some things I still have in my brain that need to be organized into something that others have access to.There are things Viper has that are 10-0 match up material and she actually has access to the things that got ST Akuma banned her commands for it are just a tad more complex than a simple red fireball.

Access to lab time would give me practical access to more things that Viper can do. A lot of them are just matters of time to get down, like practicing the rom in MvC2. I know it’s possible, and I know with enough time I could do things consistently. Viper has broken tools and execution is her barrier. So pretty much your statement of 2 months is 2 months thinking time, like one and a half weeks playing time. (Yes, I play a lot for someone who doesn’t have the game. >.>; )

As for air dash down forward, I use it too much because I don’t have access to stable rapid fire seismic hammer or more importantly rapid assist advancing guard negating seismic hammer (Viper has too much stupid stuff). Those things are definitely better options than ADDF like I was doing, they’re not necessary to go even in match ups, but they do make match ups more dominant once she’s had the development time put in.

As for me losing to Chris I think that more says about choking on streams, Cam being clutch and me not having training mode than anything else. XD Also MMd him after the tourney and avenged that match when I was off stream. ^.^

Edit: Some things were posted while I was typing: Phoenix’s air tk-shots are dominant against a large section of the cast but have match ups they shouldn’t be used in at all. They’re fundamentally a less broken tool than seismic hammer but easier to use. It’s not a significant issue for many characters with gauge or certain characters without (Dante, Dorm, etc.)