He’s not just too easy in an execution sense. If it was only his execution that was easy there wouldn’t be a problem.
Wolverine is easily the best character in the game. With akuma that is. that assist makes him utterly insane. By himself tho he has pretty much guess wrong once from half screen and you die braindead stupidity. then a free mixup on the incoming character. Seriously many of you must not have played a wolverine that abuses him really well. Its a frustrating fight with anyone. Worst part is that you can play him like this in a couple hours smh.
Incoming flood of new post with taskmaster now ranked In top 5 and a flood of new taskmaster players.
Lame
you forgot the step of adding akuma’s tatsu.
i feel run away trish beat logan quite convincingly. especially with assists such as dante’s jam session to aid my tri jumping around the place while setting up traps. and if trish just do the basic super jump in the air while setting up traps, there is little wolverine can do to stop her. and throwing out round harvest from like mid screen to push wolverine either further back while you set up traps and shoot low voltages for chip is good as well. of course if she get hit her life is probably gone. but i like trish vs wolverine way more than dante or wesker vs wolverine atm.
After discussing a lot about Phoenix with Dacidbro/F-Champ and some others I’ve changed my tier list, Viper is no longer number 2 and Doom is no longer 8…
S+: Other than execution I view these characters as having minimal downsides and very few bad match ups. These characters have game plans that with good enough execution become really devoid of necessary thought and incredibly effective. They are both in dramatic need of nerfs.
C.Viper
Dante (On the list twice)
There is a significant gap between here and everywhere else
A+: Have the tools to fight any match up, very strong characters that can go even with or dominate the majority of the cast.
Dark Phoenix (There are too many random factors for her to be consistently as strong as she can be, Dark Phoenix in ideal conditions is as good as Viper/Dante, however stopping those factors is possible and thus she is no longer the best in the game.)
Magneto (I feel Magneto with the corresponding assist has no matches worse than 5-5 at current levels of play, his matches against the top 2 will get worse over time, but I feel he is the most stable character in the game for fighting any team.)
A: Able to fight any match from any situation and not have too much of an issue with it.
Ammaterasu
Taskmaster (On the list twice)
Wesker
Zero (On the list twice. Moved up because of the stupidity of buster shot, good matches against certain very good characters.)
A-:Although they have bad match ups here and there they fulfill their team roles brilliantly!
Dormammu
Doctor Doom (On the list twice, moved down not because I think any less of him, but because I think more of the characters that moved up.)
Storm
B+: These characters have some terrible match ups against multiple members of the top, but all have dominant tools against others.
Trish
Wolverine
Felicia
Spencer
B: These are characters to give respect to and not treat lightly, but nowhere near the threat levels of the top characters in every situation. If you let these characters put you in the situations they’re good in they can ruin any character’s day.
Spiderman (Really high damage output, good run away, terrible normals.)
MODOK (Only here because of his use against some really good characters. I feel that he gets destroyed by some other good characters, counterpick tier.)
Chris
Akuma
X-23
She-hulk (I still think she can be zoned out, but need to improve her placement based on the efficacy she has once she’s inside.)
Hulk (He has some amazing tools but I think every character above him in the list has tools that are incredibly effective against him.)
Viewtiful Joe (I still see a lot of potential here. His tools are very effective against the melee oriented characters (Wolverine, Felicia, X-23))
C+: Although not as beefy as those above these characters they have legitimate places in the game on various teams.
Jill (I feel she’s like Chun Li but better, good rush down but huge issues with large sections of play. She however has damage output, a DHC glitch starter and an invincible super.)
Deadpool (I was incorrect in putting him below Ryu, fixing this.)
Sentinel (I was incorrect in putting him below Ryu, fixing this.)
S-Skrull
C: These characters need to outplay their opponent and or random them out by a significant margin, they both have good assists but have crippling weaknesses that force them to do more work.
Tron (On the list twice.)
Chun-Li (May be higher, her rushdown is amazing just everything else isn’t.)
Ryu
C-:These characters need to work significantly harder against a competent opponent to win
Captain America
Iron Man
Morrigan (May be higher, though she has some large fundamental issues, may have good matches against some important characters.)
D Tier: These are among the characters I feel with their given tools can’t compete once people start doing things effectively or have such a crippling match up as to prevent their use.
Arthur (Cannot fight Dog, has very bad match ups against the majority of the top tier.)
Hsien Ko (On the list twice. Cannot fight run away, has very bad match ups against the majority of the top tier.)
Haggar (Also on the list twice)
Unknown tier: I don’t adequately understand enough about these characters to tier them.
Shuma: Great assist, interesting tools on point potentially strong (C+)
Thor: I do not have the information required to adequately say what he can do, precursory glances made him look bad, but I haven’t gotten enough lab time to check.
Special Case Tier: Other factors are important team related factors may outweigh their ability to function on point.
Haggar: Lariat
Tron: Gustaff Fire
Taskmaster: Horizontal and Vertical arrows.
Dante: Jam session, Devil Trigger DHC
Doom: Hidden Missiles, plasma beam
Zero: Sougenmu DHC
Hsien Ko: Armored DHC and assist.
Not even lightning loop but Zero can do some pretty sick damage. Hell my Zero BnB off 2L/J.H/Crossup lightning dive does like 750 K without DHC and uses 1 meter and 1 assist while building 2 bars and grants full screen corner carry. It’s not even optimized since I know I could add like 2 more lightning dives before throwing out the buster. Using one DHC, I kill pretty much the whole cast off any random Zero hit, which is fucking easy to get. My Zero actually has the highest ratio of ToDs of all my characters.
Only top dog who rivalizes with this is Dante. All the rest need level 3s to get more damage than zero.
Let’s not forget that Zero has the best projectile in the game which can lead to ToD combos with the right team setup and helps him hitconfirm from awkward hits(jam session).
Oh yeah, some of the fastest normals in the game this kid has.
I lol a lot when people say Wesker is high damage and then come and say Zero has low damage. I think EvilToasterofFP found a 1m zero combo using 1 meter and 2 assists, no lightning dive loop. Even Dante has a hard time getting that without any loops.
Low health is his only drawback, along with subpar ground throw game.
This. Trish is a cold hard counter to wolverine. She can play the lame game all day. Also anytime she hits with a random divekick, it’s lights out for wolverine.
Honestly, you don’t need ground throws with Zero when he has 50 other ways of opening people up.
I think he’s S tier personally, I’ve seen nothing to say otherwise. Every competent Zero player I’ve seen has done well, it’s just that there are not a lot of them. There’s the easy mode online Zeros, but only a few ones that are really pushing the character to how far he can go. He’s probably the easiest character in the game to get hits with, unchallengable normals, amazing pressure, mixups, terrifying at range. He can actually murder any assist from anywhere on screen at any time with level 3 buster > command dash super canceled into rekkoha x factor rekkoha. If you hit both characters with it, you just killed 2 characters for no effort from full screen away.
Why are we still on this “Zero does low damage” thing? Zero does low damage ONLINE. Real offline Zero kills you on a touch, everytime. Get off the internet. My brother plays Zero and I’ve never been hit by Zero and not taken 900k damage with a DHC at the end. Ever. No matter where I get hit I lose 900k. All he needs is one assist that pops you up. Not hard to get.
The only thing wrong with Zero is that he can’t quite close the gap as safely without assists but with assists he really has nothing to lose with broke normals that lead to TOD’s on most of the high cast any way. Zero’s basically what would happen if Dante had to trade range on his sword for faster start up. You can’t ever win a poking war against Zero because he has like 5 frame normals that have no vulnerable hit boxes. Only way to hit him is to randomly land some shit. You can’t actually plan to hit him. He’s on his John Deere lawnmower shit once he gets in.
Safe on block charged buster gets him through advance guard and leads to hard knockdown and TOD’s on hit? Plus sogenmu makes it so he can double charge shot you? Character is stupid as shit and will pretty much always stay in the top 10 if all he needs is an assist to just go nuts and kill people. At least you’ll probably survive a Wolvie combo unless he turns on the XF. Zero doesn’t need the reset/mix up after. He just needs an assist and someone to DHC into. You just die unless you got Wesker in there.
Zero is basically designed to just command the match once he’s on screen with an assist. Only way to kill him is to chip him out or randomly land some shit. His offense is basically his defense. You’re not going to counter hit those swords and the sword’s ability to auto correct jump ins into combos is hilarious. This is all considering if he hits you and you dont have Ryu or Wesker health, you lose your character after DHC. Even if he doesn’t DHC he’s still getting like 700k and can easily plant another safe coin drop mix up to kill you.
Oh and he can follow up DHC glitch also so even random online people can one hit kill with Zero too.
I think Chrisis is the best tier list currently. The only problems I personally have with it is the placing of Akuma (needs to be higher like on B+).
Chun might be higher but as of now, we are all unsure, we need to see more. S tier through A- is perfect. B+ Imo should have Wolverine on top,
then Trish, Spencer, and then Felicia. Iron-Man is a lot better than Cap imo, his zoning mid-range poking game causes trouble for tons of characters.
Great list Chrisis.
Something that seems more and more relevant for tiering as the game matures is a character’s ability to successfully attack a character that is coming in from a kill or a snap, I’ve been calling them “welcome” setups. Who do you guys feel, with the proper assist(s), has the strongest welcome game?
Some that I know:
Wolverine of course, with Drill Claw into dive kick into assist(usually tatsu)+mixup is one of the best
Viper has stuff with Ammy and Dante, though I don’t know the exact sequences (cough Chrisis cough)
Dormammu’s I discovered on my own, which is funny since he’s, like, my 18th best character. But he can drop flame carpet, call Jam Session or Zero’s DP assist, then tri-jump when they land on the carpet.
Dante has Acid rain stuff. I don’t know the exact sequences, again, but they’re no secret.
Wesker can do his jACS stuff, but I’m not sure the optimal way to make this “unstoppable” via assist.
Taskmaster can hold them with Ammy and do Sword Master
What do you guys think are the best welcome setups, and do you feel they have any bearing on the tiers? I would think a character who can not only kill effectively, but then threaten to either kill or put a big dent into the next guy, has to be taken quite seriously, especially if any of these setups reach the “guaranteed” level. And I’m sure some of these setups, even if not the ones I listed above, are or will be guaranteed hits over time.
X23 is designed almost entirely on welcoming people to their death with XF activate into Dirt Nap one hit kills. Just need an assist to blow them up coming in. With a character like Dante it’s not even a mix up because the only character that can escape (at least if you carry them to the corner AFAIK) is Sentinel mashing on hard drive. Everybody else has to lose the next character. Which will eventually make her one of the scariest level 1/2 XF characters in the game.
If that is the case why aren’t more tournaments won by people using these guys? If these guys are “in dramatic need of nerfs” then why can’t people beat Justin Wong with them? Why isn’t J Wong so afraid of these guys that he has to have them in his team? Even if you subscribe to the “because J Wong is a god” school of though then what about those trying to beat him?
facepalm worthy post… it should be obvious why practically nobody is beasting with Viper right now. She is really hard to play, which is her only balancing factor… she can do some incredibly ridiculous stuff. Have you ever seen what a good seismo chain can do to an assist? focus attack xx EX seismo? real unblockables? She does not care about getting pushblocked, does insane damage, and has a decent set of assists.
and then Dante has been beasting on the east coast for awhile now. JWong might not use either character because he’s lazy.
I think FilipinoChamp plays the best Phoenix I’ve ever seen. (Though I think he’s a little better than his competition and would like to see him in a big tourney) That having said, going to have to agree with Chrisis on Phoenix’s placement. I felt that last night he would’ve did a lot better in matches with Magneto, Sentinel, Dorm than running Phoenix which forced him to not have a third assist to backup, having to save meter, etc. All those things REALLY crippled some of his decisions and gameplan. Phoenix alone would be a godly character and I think that really skews people’s perception (mines included) but her presence on a team where people aren’t just banking to cash in on her dark phoenix 50/50 xfc3 is a huge negative against her. I think that’s why most top tier players aren’t carrying her on their team.
Well he’s saying why isn’t JWong losing to these characters. IMO Marvel3 (despite problems) is actually relatively balanced. The better player will usually win anyway. The BIG randommess is the XFC3 50/50 and that needs to be fixed. =\
Doom is hard to play too… yet people have found some degree of success with him. Viper certainly can do ridiculous stuff but half of the cast can do ridiculous stuff too. Trying to land those ridiculous stuff consistently is another issue. Why is Viper’s ridiculous stuff any more ridiculous than what Wolverine or Magneto can do? You can claim that J Wong is lazy but what about those who are not J Wong and are not using Dante? Why aren’t those using Dante having a big edge over them? You can make long pretty looking combos with Dante using his countless specials but why bother when so many characters can kill in one combo?
Viper’s normals are really bad and don’t beat much in the game (They are the same as SF4 hitboxes it seems. Just a little bigger. Not much). She has a very black and white difference compared to your dante/wolverine/mag/wesker… Her learning curve is very different because you have to use special moves all the time to open up a character. But once you learn her special moves properly her mix-ups are insane. With the right pressure situation she has a vast amount of options to open up a character. She doesn’t have very easy 50/50 opportunities but she has tick throw opportunities, instant overheads on any character and almost instant cross-up overheads when in the right positions.
Her reset opportunities are limitless if you’re creative enough. She is a DHC character within herself in terms of damage. When you use the proper combo along with her EX moves in the right place you do the same/more damage than you would using 2 meters with her than DHC’ing into other characters. She has combos where starting with 1 meter she will end up with a net gain of .5 meter and use 3 meters within the combo to kill off any character with 1.1mil health. If I get the right hit with Viper and know how to turn it into a combo im easily getting 800k on you and a free DHC because of her crazy battery. Her execution is why she is more difficult to use and she has to work harder to get the right opportunities and that is is why you aren’t seeing too many Vipers in tourney play.
I’m still not sure if she is the tippy top of the tier but she is definitely up there with the best. Plus wasn’t Sentinel/storm in MvC2 not considered top tier when the game was around this early? Who knows. Overtime we’ll see more potential unlocked with characters. This thread will thrive forever.
What exactly would you nerf with these two characters?
Doom is not even capable of doing the things Dante and Viper can on point, period - end of story. LOOK AT THEIR MOVESETS. Seriously. People have success with Doom because he has some of the best assists in the game…
Dante - invincible moves like the Hammer (which hit on both sides and is up to +20 on block) can start the “long pretty looking combos” Dante can do build 2 meters plus, almost as much as Magneto, and one touch a lot of the cast without DHCs. that is just one thing he can do.
Viper - you can lock down someone’s point character with seismo blockstun as you juggle their assist forever - totally safely - for NO METER
quit talking about jwong
There were like 3 Dantes in top 8 of UFGT (the most recent major for Marvel in probably the last month and a half). Not to mention the times 10 stars and Josh Wong have placed high or won the local 8 on the breaks with Dante. If that’s not a sign…I dunno what is. Basic Dante blowing people up and the character has vastly more potential just with some execution added on? He’s already running shit and will be running more shit in the future.
Since I’ve switched to Dante the only thing I can see keeping him out of like S tier contention is if you get in he can’t press buttons unless he push blocks you out. Though as long as he has space he’s basically the best in the game. Swords go half the screen and give him 6 to 700k combos with a level 1 and can play a decent projectile game especially with an assist. If no assist turn on mini XF Devil Trigger and get that projectile war boost. Assist based super quick homing teleport gives him high low mix up from anywhere on the screen…there’s literally NOTHING he can’t do and he’s definitely not SOL without an assist. Definitely better like Wesker but also like him he’s got shit to do either way.