MvC2 Rom the (19, lk, mk, ADD, lk, mk) variation that I started with: 1 month to learn with training mode for maybe an hour a day with plentiful air dashing practice via 5 fierce and the like in actual matches on top of said training mode.
Taskmaster 1 million B&B: 3 days intermittent play, 45 minutes of training mode and I already have it like 65%ish.
I’m with Duck Strong for this, people are lazy about how much time they want to invest into their characters to get combos down.
To contrast though I’ve spent many hours playing Viper and I still don’t have her best B&Bs down yet so it’s not purely the game, Task’s high damage stuff is just really easy.
i’ll give you task master but can you still consider it her BnBs if its proving so difficult to accomplish them at a high level of consistency?
Im really just asking at this point not challenging.
Execution is never a factor in tiers or character strength unless it is so hard that a player, with practice, can still not expect to do it consistently. Nothing in MvC3 even comes remotely close to that level of execution. Even that hard stuff (Viper, Dante, IM, Magneto, MODOK…etc) isn’t even that bad.
Just because something is hard to do like Zero lightning dives doesn’t make it impractical (if you think so you need to learn the definition of impractical), actually it’s very practical because you can do it anywhere on the screen without an assist off any hit (which zero in my opinion is the best at getting)
It’s not impractical you just need practice
My execution is horrid and I can’t do the task master combo 100% it’s probably not hard if you have slightly above average execution.
execution barrier is what keeps people interested in fighters sadly. You can have the best yomi, and mind games but if you drop combo’s your not winning anything major. Especially in mvc3
People complain about mvc3 being easier but it punishes you harder for making small mistakes.
Why are we discussing if execution should a factor in someone’s bnb again?
Execution is player dependent, and if you can’t reliably land a high execution bnb then you shouldn’t have made that your bnb to begin with.
The only way Wolverine, Taskmaster and Wesker (or really, any top tier character) would slip in the rankings is if some new technology was discovered with a lower tier character that was:
A: Simple to use
B: Resulted in high damage
C: Could be started in almost any given situation
Those are the three main things that, at least when it comes to brutal combos, Wolverine, Wesker and Taskmaster have going for them that keep them in top tier positions. All three of them have extremely that are simple to pull off, build as much if not more meter than they spend, and the combos are easy to set up and don’t necessarily require any particular portion of the screen. This is in addition to the other array of tools that they have available between them - health, mobility, projectiles, teleports, etc.
Execution factor should definitely be considered when placing a character in the tier list. If you look at Wolverine vs C.Viper for example - sure, Viper can reach levels of Wolverine damage and even surpass them, but the effort and execution required to hit those levels is far and beyond that of what Wolverine would have to exert. To put it simply, Wolverine gets you the same result for much less investment. Not all players are at the same level, and even execution masters will drop combos from time to time. The only way you could guarantee flawless execution every time would be if a robot was commanding the character. This is just an example of why I feel Wolverine (and characters like him) should always place higher than Viper (and characters like her) on the tier list.
@Chrisis who mentioned that they felt Wolverine would slip in the tier ranks as more people figured out how to fight against him and punish his tools that were punishable - not much of what Wolverine does *is *actually punishable. His normals are, for the most part, safe on block, and while Berserker Slash is vulnerable during start-up and recovery, the window of opportunity is so short that the risk of attacking him and possibly eating a Berserker Slash far outweighs the potential reward. Dive Kick, as we know, is safe on block, and the hitbox is so large that attempting to anti-air it again puts you at major risk of getting clipped, staggered and killed. Wolverine does have two specials that are extremely punishable - Berserker Barrage and Tornado Claw - and surprise! these are the two least used moves in Wolverine’s arsenal. Hell, even Drill Claw is somewhat safe on block because the roll out can be canceled into a Dive Kick.
This is a true statement. But I think that ultimately it is a good thing. Nowadays people are expecting the playing field to be level for new and experienced players and this is harmful to the game. The game should reward you for practicing and learning and getting better at it. Execution is one way to do that. Also, nobody has bad execution, some players just work at it more than others.
Case in point about the modern attitude, which is a problem. Recently, I got blown up by a phoenix player that had no idea what they were doing (I couldn’t prevent DPh), and naturally I was salty and bitching about the character being broke, yada-yada. He responded, being serious, that him picking phoenix was no different than my touch of death viper/dante/IM combos… Winning is supposed to take effort, and execution and practice should be a part of that.
Wolverine has 2 options against someone zoning him to move in, that’s super jump and berserker slash. There are ways to blow up both of these options that are incredibly stable for a lot of other good teams. People are not accustomed to dealing with a berserker slash that’s not trash and have not adjusted to how to keep him out. Some of the best examples of this were at Guard Crush I believe where Drones + EM disruptor destroyed both of those options hard and until Liston changed his game plan a significant amount of Wolverine’s life vanished. Divekick as most people use it is not safe, there’s only a very specific spacing it’s safe at and so much as dashing crouch cancelling then blocking it lets you punish if they don’t berserker charge cancel. This is not easy but it is learnable. Certain characters do not have an issue anti airing dive kick: Dante, Taskmaster, Viper, and with certain spacing Dormammu all being prime examples.
In the air Wolverine has 2 options to change his trajectory, dive kick and drill claw. Drill claw needs to collide with something to not be suicide and Dive kick against someone who knows how to AA it at that height is react-able. He has better options than many melee characters for moving forward, but a solid zoning technique still works against Wolverine. There are a lot of things he has that I don’t feel will lose any of their efficacy however, his overhead low and left right game once in is only going to get harder to block as people optimize patterns. However with his inherent vulnerabilities I don’t think he’s anywhere near as strong nor stable of a character as Magneto, Dante, etc.
wolvie can get around zoning with assists. I will rape any Mags/sent combo with wolvie/shuma assist all day long. Also wolvie is fast enogh to just dash up to you if you don’t constantly have stuff on the ground in front of him, which if you do you risk a berzerker slash through it or a beam assist etc. Wolvie will not fall out of top tier. To many 50/50’s and not any hard counters to him.
Just because wolvie’s use a simplier combo that still does great damage, does not mean wolvies’ aren’t discovering new stuff. Honestly alot of what wolvies develop after discovering the many ways to force 50/50’s or air throw setups is how to beat zoning. This is the big difference between day 1 wolvies and good wolvies. I know against what assists what gets beat and what doesn’t, my combo’s don’t evolve just my approaches. Also if you are at all basing wolvie potential around online play just stop, no online wolvie can reliably get around projectiles with varying degree of latenency, so what do wolvies do, just random dive kicks and slashes instead of trying to time/place setups. Also wolvie’s airgrab is one of his best attributes and I think air throws are very unreliable online so if my character can’t go for one safely (like ammy) I usually don’t even try.
BTW Nerdjosh I want a rematch. I’ve finally played some she-hulks and learned the match-ups. Its a shame there was only like 6 people at Power-up I thought could beat me and I had to play 2 of them in pools.
Not gonna lie Disruptor + Drones or just Magneto + Drones is a problem for a lot of characters. It isnt only exclusive to Wolverine. Divekick will always be effective, call an assist to cover your divekicks, shit won’t get blown up.
Wolverine isn’t going anywhere pending nerfs. When a character has a super obvious gameplan that you know is coming, yet you can’t stop most of the time then that strategy is pretty much here to stay.
Wolverine always has assists to cover his ass anyways. If you put Wolverine at #3 then you have no idea what you are doing. Logan is one of the most dangerous point characters now and will be for the duration of Vanila Marvel 3. His pressure if fucking relentless and there just isn’t a button you can press that just gets a GOOD wolverine off of you. Any opponent that can cut through pushblock like warm butter is scary.
If DHC glitch is removed Wolverine will be the #1 point character by a decent margin. I take that back, him and Dante will both be. Magneto will still be great but the DHC glitch makes him ridiculous right now.
Yea but You can press M in Miami and you will hit someone in Egypt. MHStinger->Bold Cancel is so ridiculous at keeping nonstop pressure even with constant blocking. Especially if you have a beam assist to cross people up with.
Saying Dante isn’t a very good point character is like saying Sagat in vanilla didn’t hit very hard.
Is it possible to put Dante in a truly BAD situation? He’s got answers for just about everything, although his offense isn’t as herp derp as some others obviously.
Coming in against Dorm with two Balls in the air, a Flame Carpet on the ground, decent assists (Tron, Sent, Doom, what have you) and X-factor available.
If you wish you can replace Dorm/Balls with Zero/Sougenmu or Wolverine/Berserker Charge.