I was actually expecting Shuma to have a meter-draining move to begin with. It’s a shame that never happened, because I would have liked to see that sort of wrinkle in the game, especially if a hypothetical meter-draining move took away enough meter to make it viable. There would almost certainly be other applications other than just being a full-on Phoenix counter… such as keeping someone off enough meter for a level 3 super or early on to keep someone from having two bars to prevent DHCs (DHC glitch counter anyone?)
To be honest though, I don’t think we need a meter-draining move as a Phoenix counter. I know I’m going to sound like a broken record, but the problem with Phoenix is level 3 X-factor. She is the epitome of what is wrong with the mechanic right now. Wesker, Sent, Tasky, and other great characters with XF3 can’t even hold a candle to a cracked out Dark Phoenix.
well it does seem like wolvie is moving his way up the tier list… he builds meter really fast, has near touch of death combos that are impossible to mess up(TOD with any level xfactor or 3 bars), what also makes him so great is his ability to catch and kill a bad assist call, unlike Wesker where there is a pretty big chance the assist will fall out
not all, but some of the overlooked points that make Wolvie so good
The only character that I feel are very much limited in his presence is Arthur. He just isn’t a MvC3 character. It literally feels like he’s a character for the wrong game. Hsien Ko can feel very limited at first but I think if people were to put time into her, they’d realize she’s actually usable (gold armor is actually VERY good for point). It’s just her weirdness that turns people off. Some of these guys complaining in the past few pages are ridiculous. Like that guy who commented about how a team of Hsien ko, Felicia, Morrigan should be as competitive as a well built team with synergy. Some of the fun of Marvel is that some people find tech to make certain builds work. If I find characters that I like, I try to find teams to fit them in. I don’t just mash them all together and hope that crap works.
Zoning in general not nearly as strong as rushdown in this game. Like, sure it’s a viable strategy in certain matchups, like disruptor zoning with Mags or arrows with Task but both those characters are better off any way touching you once and doing their ridiculous meter building combo into ridiculous one-touch-death. Patient zoning doesn’t really work when all the opponent has to do is get in once/you guess wrong once and you die. What’s really sad is Arthur gets outzoned by rushdown characters and Hsien-Ko has to spend 1 bar to be temporarily playable before she quickly reverts back to being ass. If you look at the current top characters they all have ridiculous rushdown but also happen to have great projectiles as well, aside from Wolvie (yes Ammy has an amazing projectile, it’s called paper).
Yeah Wolverine with assist is an obvious top tier. It gets to the point where unless you guess what he’s going to do you’re pretty much guaranteed to be in a bad situation. With an assist he turn even throws into a bad situation so even if you you’re blocking the left right if he mixes in a throw you’re in trouble also. Plus the right assist gives him the ability to instant overhead at least once and more on bigger characters. Then there’s the fact that the only way to effectively stop wolverine’s dive kick that will lead to him dying is to guard cancel XF his dive kick. When a character gets so annoying that you basically have to guard XFC one of their best moves to kill them off…that’s the sign of a threatning character.
Hsien Ko at least has the viability of being a strong assist. It’s easy to point out that she’s not great on point but the fact that she has actually won tournaments period (while mainly being an assist) proves that for now she’s entirely better than Arthur pretty much by her assist alone. It sucks that you have to use Hsien Ko pretty much as an assist to not get her bodied but people have dealt with that in Marvel before any way. With some small patches she could easily become better on point.
Arthur’s only hope I see is similar to Hsien Ko’s. Gold armoring his assist and then keeping him in the back possibly for some cheap LVL 3 XF stuff. Which unfortunately if the opponent ends up also having level 3 XF pretty much negates that. Something like putting together a one two combination before Arthur that they’ll have to burn XF early to kill (like Wolvie/She Hulk or Wolvie/Akuma) could help Arthur get some things done in the back but you could also just get mostly better results with Wesker or Sentinel in the back who fare better when the opponent has XF.
Zoning just isn’t a good primary strategy in this game so far. Risk/reward is really heavily in rushdown’s favor with so many teleporting characters that OHKO, and zoning teams auto-lose to Phoenix teams.
Now, if your team (Magneto, Dante, whoever with Sentinel assist) can zone while doing its regular thing, all the better.
Interesting question: why isn’t She-Hulk considered a contender for top 5 character in MvC3? Lots of top players use her and have big successes with her, Justin uses her, Combofiend uses her, Floe uses her. I have never seen a team being dragged down by a weak She-Hulk before. I think a strong case can be made that she, Wolverine and Magneto are the 3 best point characters in the game. Yes, she requires an assist to be effective and to get in on people, but I don’t see why that should be an major issue limiting her potential, since the assists are there for you to use.
I’m with the couple people wondering why some are hell bent on not only a Top 5, but ranking them. There is no point to arguing the miniscule differences between the S Tier characters in this game. Phoenix, Wesker, Wolverine, Ammy, Magneto, and Dante are the S tier. All of them create issues for everyone else not in that tier, Phoenix changes the game, Wolvie and Wesker hit like trucks and are walking mix ups. Ammy is frustration incarnate, Magneto is a walking battery and Dante is the most effective combo video ever with the ability zone and rushdown much like Mag. Trying to find out who is better than who will just result in a circular argument that will never end.
I feel it’s easier if you’re going to do a top anything to put together a top 10. That way it can be like a combination of S and A tier characters that there’s more room to put together. Most of the problem is trying shove a bunch of really good characters into 5 spaces. There’s definitely around 10 or so characters that are just a cut above the rest especially when paired with the right assists.
The level of play and the evolution of the characters in general is just not strong enough to condense a 5 man super tier. Most of the cast including most of the high tiers are still untapped in potential. The only character that’s reached their max potential in mix up and combo offerings is probably Wolverine and it’s not surprising that for now he is the scariest character for a lot of people. He’s just the easiest character in the game outside of Dark Phoenix to make a legitimate problem for your opponent. If you play Wolverine for an hour and find a good assist for him you are a BIG problem.
The two characters I was most excited about were Arthur and Taskmaster. Now I won’t use a team unless I can put Taskmaster on it. Arthur, however, fell flat for me.
I think it’s nice that the MvC3 guys made each character as authentic as possible. Like, look at Deadpool. He’s still crazy, he has a sword, has lots of guns, very quick, moonwalks, sports solid keepaway, AND he has a teleport.
But that authenticity kind of turned Arthur into shit. Decent projectiles (that somehow lose to certain rushdown characters), no dash, a very slow jump, low health, etc. You’re basically playing Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts Arthur, and Arthur wasn’t even great in that game. He couldn’t swim, he moved like a man encumbered by a suit of armor should, yet his heavy steel carapace exploded if anything touched him. He was so bad, he had to beat the game twice to save a princess. Mario has been one-shotting that shit for decades, and all he has is a stupid raccoon costume and some lame fireballs.
So it’s a perfect translation. He was shit in Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts, and he’s shit in MvC3. Good job, devs!
I’m not sure how it happened either, but everyone started topping their lists with an ‘Illustrious Top 5.’ I think that, with how the game is evolving, the ‘creme de la creme’ Top 5 will become a little less exclusive, and probably expand to something like an Illustrious Top 10.
I’m really surprised you think that DevilJin. If anything, I’d say Wolvie still has ways to go compared to say Wesker. He has a TON of hit (even on block) confirm options into Berserker Charge.
Wow, this is absolutely not what I said at all. Maybe you should go back and actually read my post. I’m not going to try and defend my choice of teams, but I’ve never once complained that it wasn’t as “effective” as top tier teams with more “synergy.” In fact, none of my posts have been about teams - they’ve been about the imbalance of power between individual characters. If you’re going to paraphrase someone, at least take the time to comprehend what they’ve written.
As far as your comment about Hsien-Ko, I partially agree. Spend enough time with her and you’d realize that she is actually a fun in her own way. She has a weird and quirky arsenal of tools that can be effective at confusing players at some times. Take my word for it - I use her all the time, and use her on point probably more than I should.
Hsien-Ko has a so-so zoning and mix-up game that is greatly hindered by her severe lack of mobility and inability to cause damage or build meter outside of complicated gong loops that specifically depend on the corner. Gold Armor helps her ability to approach, but is restricted by her obvious and easily evaded approach options - pendulum swing or an incredibly slow dash. Gold Armor also only lasts 5 seconds, which will only catch a person if they are retarded and try to attack her while she’s on the offensive. All they have to do is run or block for 5 seconds and she’s effectively wasted her meter.
The problem with Hsien-Ko is that what she’s actually good at isn’t very apparent, and doesn’t really excel in any particular department. On the flip side, the issues that cripple her are extremely visible. She’s ridiculously slow, she has below average health, she has ridiculous damage and hitstun scaling issues, her gong is buggy and unreliable at times, her Anki Hou item toss is plagued by the frequency of bombs that don’t have hitboxes when they’re tossed, leaving her exposed to damage… she just needs work. A lot of work.
This reply should be moved. This is the “Actual Balance/Potential Tier Discussion Thread.” You want the “Develop an Unhealthy Obsession with a Poster and Shamelessly Try to Mock Them Without Contributing Anything Constructive Thread.”
If you’re claiming to worry about the disparity between individual characters than your post is even more out of sync to this thread since Marvel 3 is a team game. Most “lower tier” characters in this game are very usable if you give the a team to work with since this is still the early stages of the game and it hasn’t been fleshed out yet. I just couldn’t help but notice that the team you mentioned just HAPPENS to be team Darkstalkers which is about just as viable as all those other themed teams (though Team X men with Storm, Wolvie, Phoenix is actually pretty decent …). There are bad matchups in the game but your job is to build a team to avoid that. (Combofiend’s She-Hulk, Taskmaster, Spencer team is hardly overpowering if you only look at the characters individually nor LLND’s team of Chris, Hsien Ko and whoever the hell his last charrie is).