Ammy is his third character.
And I agree that one has to look at overall strengths of teams rather than characters, but at the same time a character like Wolverine can fuck your shit up just fine on his own.
In addition to this I think it’s worth adding that Wolverine is one of the only characters who’s actually good against both of this games hard to deal with assists (i.e. Tron and Haggar).
I say that mainly because that’s pretty much all there is to Wolverine. Confirming stuff into berserker charge and berserker charge is safe on block any way after berserker slash which makes Wesker’s teleports look completely smart in comparison. He’s effective because the game basically plays him for you and I dont really see what else there is to do with him that people aren’t already doing. It’s literally to the point where people are just going to be doing things less with him than anything else. Like eventually Wolverine players are going to be dive kicking less when people aren’t afraid to blow their XF meter early after a blocked one to kill him off. Other than that he’s just another walking mix up character that really isn’t going to evolve much past the fact that he doesn’t need to evolve since as long as he’s on the screen you pretty much have to guess to effectively block him. His dive kick only loses to projectiles, throw punishing after block and guard XFC’s. The character just isn’t creative enough in his moveset where people are going to be actually doing more stuff with him whether it’s through his mix ups or combos. I’ve seen more new stuff out of Sentinel than Wolverine and that’s pretty sad. Well not really cuz it just shows how easily effective Wolverine is.
In general there’s really no need to improve a mix up with a character that when you do his special move…it auto mixes you up because you can’t react to the speed of it and will maybe/maybe not cross you up. Outside of Berserker Slash he really doesn’t have a mix up other than tick throw, dive kick crosses and instant overheads via assist. Which at the same time is basically all the mix up he’ll ever need ever.
Wesker on the other hand still has a bit more grinding out to go as far as his mix up. People are still relying on ABCS too often with him and he has a lot of options off of his s.H which people dont use enough in general. Easy to do a string like c.M, s.H and then call assist and cancel at any point into teleport. s.H has a crazy hit box against low attacks and most low attacks have huge trouble beating it. His s.H L kara grab still isn’t being used by 99 percent of Weskers in tourney play and that kara alone will make him scarier than he already is. It’ll allow him to stagger c.L’s and once he’s max c.L range away from you he can either counter hit you out of a button press with c.M or s.H or kara L grab you from that same range. His teleport game especially with assists is going to allow for a lot of interesting mix up that I feel people aren’t really putting together yet either. Especially after you put someone in the corner.
Yes, MvC3 is a team game. But a chain is only as strong as it’s weakest link. If there is a vast gulf of power between characters, you will gradually see players form teams composed of ONLY characters that have been deemed “strong” or “good” and they’ll find ways to make them work well together. I don’t think anyone wants to go back to MvC2 where only a handful of the cast was considered viable. Sure, the game has only been out for a few months and yes, there are things that haven’t been “fleshed out” completely yet, but isn’t the purpose of this post to discuss and debate balance? If not balance between the characters themselves, then what? Balance between teams? Why does the original post list characters in tiers instead of teams?
In MVC2 the game kinda ended up being more about teams than tiers and whenever you saw lists of characters that were good it was always listed as teams.
In MVC3 though I feel like the game will end up being more about who the first 2 characters on your team are than anything else. Having your whole team be able to safely DHC into each other isn’t quite as important in MVC3 as it was in MVC2. This is mainly because raw tags are crazy safer to use than they were in Marvel 2, the team aerial system that helps you switch characters and build meter and the DHC glitch allows you to one shot a character if your team is set up with the one two DHC glitch factor. If you are going to make tiers that consist of anything close to entire teams you’re better off just making a tier or list of good one two combinations in the front. The character in the back because of the XF system can just be any character that can do retarded shit in level 3 XF and has and/or has strong assist.
I think Wolverine has a permanent spot in the top-tier. His left/right mix-up on characters that are coming in isn’t something people are going to get magically better at blocking. It’s pretty much just a safe 50/50 that turns into dead characters.
The biggest difference I see from Justin’s Wolverine and Random Wolverine #251 is his air throw game. He’s really good at snatching people trying to get out, and of course that’s a full combo with Wolverine (or his She-Hulk).
She-Hulk is a similar character in a lot of ways. Similar damage, similar options. She gives up the left/right mix-up for a better throw game and some more health.
I kinda put Wolverine, She-Hulk and Zero all in the same role on a team. Amazing rushdown/pressure that just needs an assist.
no the real problem with phoenix is her stupid fucking fireballs that half the cast has NO answer to
A+ Tier (no order)
wolvie
mags
dog
wesker
dante
zero
taskmaster
note if you wondering where phoenix is she is the lone S-tier
Pretty good idea, Shuma has a life drain, why not a meter drain.
If it were a gimmick for a new character (SMvC3) well… uhm… Sigma… sorry I’m being a fanboy again :wgrin:
Something that half the cast has no problem against really isn’t that bad if you’re comparing the overall game in general. I’m assuming you’re just talking about her standard on point jump in the air H shot stuff which is really good but the main problem is when she turns in to Dark Phoenix with level 3 XF it gives her an unnecessary boost in power that really shouldn’t be in the game. The fact that Dark Phoenix is technically a fourth character you fight is the broken part about it. That broken character that you fight last has access to a 20 second level 3 XF which is absolutely ridiculous. As long as level 3 XF stays in its current state it means no one will actually ever have to learn to play Dark Phoenix without XF because with 20 seconds of level 3 XF there’s so much the opponent has to do just to burn out your XF or they die. It’s just not fair to fight 3 characters and then fight a stupid good 4th character that has access to level 3XF.
RADICAL BALANCE SUGGESTION: Only regular Phoenix can X-Factor.
Unfortunately this wouldn’t work. Low health + constant drain typically means that the only thing that keeps Dark Phoenix alive *is *X-Factor - specifically the fact that she can’t be chipped for its duration and her overwhelming offense. You would have to either give Dark Phoenix a significant health or damage boost to make up for the fact that she’s suffering a constant health drain and couldn’t X-Factor to protect herself from chip.
I actually proposed this idea as well because IMO it’s the most fair. (keep in mind I’m a Phoenix main). I think she should be able to KEEP her Xfactor boosts were she to turn to Dark Phoenix during Xfactor but not be able to activate it herself AS Dark Phoenix. This allows your opponent some chance to defend against her XFC3 and also lets me not feel like I’m a scrub because of her ridiculous power boost in XFC3.
However, now having played the game and etc and seeing XFC3’s overall effect with characters like Wesker, Wolvie, Akuma and the old classic Sentinel, I really just feel that XFC3 is just plain retarded to the point where a big part of a tier consideration should be “how good is this character in XFC3?”.
She has the life gain super…
…which serves to no end if you aren’t within range of the opponent. She’d still be incredibly vulnerable to chip - even moreso if you are facing someone with a beam super who has XF3 and a couple of meters to dump. If say, Akuma triggered Dark Phoenix and she had no bars, it would basically take two XF3 Shinku’s to end her.
I hate Dark Phoenix as much as the next person, but mostly due to the fact that they took a great character concept in regular Phoenix and latched on this unnecessary gimmick onto her with no option to shut it off. The cold, hard fact is that Dark Phoenix needs X-Factor chip protection to not be useless thanks to her abysmal health, but is ridiculously broken by the damage and speed boosts she enjoys during it.
If you could select “Jean Grey” as a “Darkless” Phoenix who had 850k hp, that’d be pretty sweet though.
It would only be a problem if people continued to play Phoenix in the same “Build five meters, then just sacrifice their other two characters on the altar to Dark Phoenix’s power” method. Perhaps then people would work Dark Phoenix activation into their gameplan in a role other than late game “KAOKEEEEEEEEEEEEN TIMES THREEEEEEEE”. People would have to actually gasp have to learn how to use Dark Phoenix as a character rather than just mashing random buttons for massive chip and pressure.
Many other characters face the exact same thing coming FROM Dark Phoenix.
When selecting Phoenix there should just be an option to roll a die IRL since that’s pretty much what you’re doing in the game.
I don’t disagree. She’s broken.
Even if you manage to learn how to play Phoenix / Dark Phoenix as a character and not as a gimmick, being the ultimate glass canon without some kind of protection from chip won’t take you very far in this game.
I just want to know why the fuck Phoenix and Dark Phoenix have separate x-factor values, and why Dark Phoenix has the higher value on top of already doing 20% more damage than Phoenix, having 30% minimum damage instead of 10%, and the fucking feathers. Phoneix gets an Ammy level X-factor bonus, 150%, Dark Phoenix rocks 200%. Shit makes no sense. I honestly think someone entered the values backwards.
As a Phoenix player, I’d cheer to see Dark Phoenix go away and Phoenix have more health. She’s more fun to play in normal mode, and people bitch a whole lot less, even when they still had no chance of winning.
Real talk, Phoenix just makes the game unfun. She’s the only fighting game character in history where killing her is a BAD thing. It goes against every established fighting game principal. Playing AS Phoenix limits your options pre-Dark as well unless you’re supremely confident in your meter-building ability. I honestly think it’d be a better idea sometimes to not-quite kill Phoenix and just run away depending on how much time is left. Which is just retarded.
this. it’s fun facing everyone until phoenix comes along. and the dumb ass strats you have to incorporate ( like runing away for 60 seconds ) if you fail to kill regular phoenix just makes the game one big ass boring chore.