Let me say that it’s a good thing Trish doesn’t do more damage and needs meter to do a lot. I don’t agree with a lot of Flash’s tier list, but his jump up then airdash down into low mixup is basically unblockable.
In order to be good good with Urien you have to know his normal game very well. Sure in the RX videos and stuff you see him just acting like a SF version of Magneto dash headbutting all over the place into unblockables but that’s…RX and he still has very good footsies as well. Most of the other 3S Uriens in Japan were more spacing and footsie based because if you dont have that gdlk move anywhere on the screen execution that RX had you had to play more calm and wait for situations.
You can’t just throw out an aegis once you have 2 meters and expect to get damage with Urien it’s not quite that easy. If that was the case my friend who tried to pick up Urien on the side would have just been running through people everytime he got 2 meters. You gotta have strong spacing of normals like his sweep and s.HP to get in position to land the Aegis. In general you have to wear people down with normals first or they’re just going to parry down random attempts to throw out aegis. Even when it comes to the RX style “throw both the walls out” crazy setups the spacing and execution you need to get that stuff to work is not practical shit anyone can do.
That video is an example of Pierre’s Urien. He wasn’t the flashy headbutt off every other dash Urien that RX was. In this set he mainly relies on spacing of his normals to set up his offense. In parts of the match he takes off big chunks of Ken’s health just spacing with s.HP and c.MK. There’s one time in the fight where he got 2 meters and he could have easily went for some “lemme throw out the aegis and dash in shit” but he held on to it to try to get into a more guranteed position to land a combo into it. Even with all of the potential he still has to deal with a character that can cancel every normal he has into damage while he can’t and that’s something you had to learn to get around as Urien.
The best Urien can do as far as hit confirming is going into tackle off s.MP or going into tackle off c.L and he has to do that at a relatively close range. Even if it’s blocked sure you still get the Aegis to come out and a possible mix up any way but the chances of the aegis getting blocked or parried down are greater than if you actually hit confirm. Which even the hit confirming is awkward.
There was a reason hardly anyone in the US made Urien really successful. He took that much work to get down. Well it’s also cuz Chun and Yun were stupid as hell but he could fight them plenty better than half the other cast. Even with all of the good stuff Urien had he still had a losing match to Ken who basically just won because fundamentally he could space himself away from Urien’s bullshit rather easily. Urien’s big hit box also gave Ken 10 more hit confirms into super against him than he normally uses.
The funny thing on top of that is that although Urien was considered a very good character…Ibuki who was definitely not as good as he was the Japanese widely considered a losing match for him. Her footsies were so much better than his and his hit box was so big that she made it that tough for him to amount an offense. This is considering she has only one gimmicky unblockable setup at most fighting against the king of unblockables. Her slide also allowed her to slip under poor setups of the aegis also that he can sometimes get away with against other characters.
This is probably the most important tier list to be posted here recently, though I added my thoughts in bold after the characters/tiers.
im assuming you ment “her” instead of “his” and im just going to say every tridash character can jump then air-dash down for a quick low and im still on the Storm>Trish train were is Mr.Nannie when you need him:confused:
X23 having worse normals than Wolverine is kinda relative. I dont think Wolverine has any normals that are plus 6 or 12 on block.
Wolverine has one of the best c.L’s in the game period which she definitely can’t compete with. 6 frame start up, goes completely under Tron’s fire assist, rapid fire, shit is derp. Has a 4 frame s.L which covers a stupid amount of range after a dash.
X23 has rather short ranged light normals but she’s designed in a way where here medium and heavy normals are meant to shine. Actually pretty much none of the X23 players on stream really use her normals to her full potential because they require a cancelling technique that none of them are doing. Even before the cancelling technique she has a 5 frame start up s.M that hits twice and is active for a long time to easily confirm into combos and is a solid anti air. Kinda crappy on whiff but you can cancel it to reduce the recovery. Her c.M is only one frame slower and beats a lot of other lows.
Her s.H is the best normal she has. By itself it’s 9 frame start up and not particularly awesome on a whiff. Though with the mirage feint cancel technique she can basically rapid fire s.H’s out on the screen even on whiff to reduce the recovery. This is one of her main tools for blowing up tri dash ins from characters like Magneto and easily confirms into full combos. The same technique when used on block gives her plus 12 advantage and she has techniques where she can whiff the normal and instantly throw you by forcing you to react to a 1 frame throw while you recover from block stun at a faster rate due to the whiff.
Wolverine for right now is better than X23 because he doesn’t require as much execution, has a bit more health, has an easier to use partly invincible version of her mirage feint and has a dive kick that gives the most free combos ever no matter how it hits.
Haha, I said ‘his’ as in Flash’s mixup, rather than Trish’s. He’s the first person I saw doing it. And yes anyone with a tridash can go into a quick low, but Trish’s air straight down dash into low just seems faster.
I agree on all accounts. I also look at the list of things you mention there for reasons why Wolverine is successful and she’s not (at the moment) and see a lot of room for her to improve over time. And Berserker Slash’s invuln isn’t that big of a deal when it’s being used to cross-up characters on entry - it’s most an issue when it’s being spammed inappropriately during the neutral game.
how’d i KNOW you were going to bring pierre into this?
LOL.
i get what you are saying, you are right up to a certain point. the same way i and pretty much every sf4 ibuki besides you says that ibukis normals are shit… they are… BUT she CAN hang by using lots of the right normals at the right times. HOWEVER its completely false to say she has goood footsies. still though she can slow her opponents role with her footsies… same as urien. but win with footsies? lol NAW.
for instance you say “thats why no us player could play urien well” actually it was BECAUSE his footsies suck AND because almost all uriens out here couldnt do the proper unblockble setups which were EXTREMELY hard plus varied from characte to character unless doing the less precise more universal versions.
but what the hell, we can agree to disagree. all im saying is that urien was good because of aegis, not because of his footsies… lose aegis keep footsies= much shittier urien.
now back onto ironman: flash thinks hes good, i wont argue that FLASHS ironman is good, but the character? im not seeing any urien aegis cheese, magneto tridash high low cheese, ranged cheese etc etc to make him out to be that good.
I COULD BE HORRIBLY WRONG i admit that, i just dont see it. and, well, neither do justin, combofiend,viscant, tatsu etc. i REALLY hope flash shows some real reasons why ironman should be so high come evo. i honestly do, i LIKE ironman.
o yeah, combofiend took last nights wnf with the super version of makoto, v ryu dominates with her, and justin has won a few times with her… maybe shes actually high tier? NO they are just really good players.
-dime
trish is better than storm for a lot of reasons. there is no way, that storm is superior to trish. all storm have going for her is either hail storm or dhc glitch, woo hoo. trish have a dive kick that basically get her in for free. and if people try to get cheeky and try to punish you, you can exactly cancel it into super or etc ( i do this to sent and hulk users all the time ). and her mix ups are very solid. IADDF cr.l, IAD j.H, IAD J.H xx dive, IAD J.S. and don’t let me forget to mention that J.S and J.H cross up. and her dhc options are as good as storm. with moves such as round harvest or maximum volatage, you should have ZERO problems using her as far as dhc goes. and her keep away game is downright criminal. if phoenix wasn’t in the game, she would have hands down the best keep away in the entire game. she straight up shits on characters like x-23, wolverine, hulk, etc. basically if you don’t have a teleport or decent air control, trish is going to give you hell.
and let me also remind ya’ll that trish also have fairly safe normals along with the fact that her round harvest serves two unique roles. for one, she can just throw it out there from good distance to give you a chance to hard tag. number two, after an air combo into hard knockdown special it sets up MEATY unblockables that will more that likely kill the opponent depending on your squad. also trish is another one of the fortunate characters that can dhc glitch along with the fact that her assist peek-aboo sets up assist for those that may not be able to do it on their own! and let’s just clear one misconception up, everyone raves about how trish damage is mediocre but yet she can net 600k easy mid screen. and before somebody say “600k is weak in this game” well, don’t everyone praise the same wolverines who do the same 630k bnb? yes, even the pros don’t go out they’re way to perform better combos. so with that logic shouldn’t trish damage be solid also? also, with various low assists she can do easy 700k bnbs in the corner. so i fail to see how her damage is “sub_par” especially since within a real match after wear & tear you’ll probably be near death after her bnbs.
trish also isn’t a slouch when it comes to assists, her peak-aboo assist can be used for a lot of situations such as trapping after killing/snapping an enemy, anti-air, and of course dhc glitch. and her low voltage is a decent projectile assist that doesn’t scales much and gives decent coverage for teleport characters such as dante or wesker. i can’t say much for hopscotch since i have yet to make use of it. but yea, in a nutshell i feel trish>storm.
Well Ibuki had good footsies in 3rd Strike. Her normals were way better plus her walk speed was actually good. Her shitty ass SFIV version has terrible walk speed and completely nerfed normals. The light and medium ones have fast start up frames but in general she’s a terrible character in that game for actually playing a spacing game. She has solid normals in of themselves in SIFV but the short range and terrible walk speed makes them not good for footsies basically. She’s just random shit run in mix up type. Which you can do much better with Viper and get better footsies. It’s really sad that the 3S version of Ibuki is more reminiscent of a traditional SF character in her spacing and footsies than the one that’s supposed to be in the rebirth of SF2. Bleh.
You can know all of the unblockable fun dash set up shit you want…if you dont have good spacing with Urien, Ken and Chun are going to smack you around any way and Yun will get his broke meter shit long before you do.
Speaking of damage I’m trying to remember if I’ve ever seen Storm do more damage than Trish in a non DHC trick combo. Trish does very respectable damage for what she’s capable of.
Going over the Guard Crush archives is convincing me even more that people need to get off Wolverine’s nuts. Refer to Liston vs Noel Brown (first 10 minutes of part 2 of the archive). The best character in any game does not get locked down that hard by anything ever, and Liston did it twice with two different characters. Wolvie’s good, but no way in hell is he #1.
link?
:tup:
-dime
Don’t get me wrong. Wolverine is really really good. He’s actually the only character other than Phoenix who I completely change my entire gameplan against. I run Zero on point and lame him out with projectiles, using Jam Session to cover me from dive kicks, and usually it works very well. It is of course likely that the Wolverines I play need to get better, but I still can’t see him as #1.
Liston specifically did a pretty good job of purposely staying away from Wolverine as much as he could. He always tried to run to the back of the screen so it was less likely a berserker slash would cross if that’s what Noel wanted to do. When you jumble yourself up in the mid screen against Wolverine that’s when outta nowhere 50/50’s happen and Wolvie blows you up like a non flying hairy dark phoenix. You pretty much have to do the same thing against Wesker but in reverse. Since Wesker can’t actually hit you and is immediately vulnerable after the teleport and they only go one set distance nearly full across the screen you’re better off just constantly trying to get in and close the gap on Wesker so his teleports have no practical use without an assist call.
how dare you insult her like that… (its storm, haha)
anyways, the thing that makes wack-bitch viable here is her dhcs (some of the best supers for in/out and can dhc glitch). she has good mixups, but her limbs and specials are ass, so fighting with her is a struggle.
The last time I fought a She Hulk I was pretty annoyed by her ridiculous c.L and j.H. Her other normals are pretty ass though yeah. s.H is probably kinda underused since it’s plus one on block but generally c.L you’re going to use most often because all the others are death without an assist call or run cancel.
Oh lol. I <3 She-Hulk, I just didn’t see her on there so I wasn’t sure.
cr.H is amazing for punishing also. I kinda wish her overhead wasn’t so obvious but w/e. I can sneak it in sometimes, it just feels harder than it should be (no homo).
We just had a debate in Shuma forums if Shuma is the worst or just bottom 5 for this game. This coming from shuma mains, people keep putting him mid pack because they don’t understand him at all.
Shuma is garbage with a really good assist. Luckily MvC3 garbage can still hang right now. Shumas damage output is laughable. He has some decent tools but when you aren’t putting out damage in a game based on damage there are problems.
The fact that I maintain a 70 percent win rate online when 2 of the 3 characters on my team are garbage lends yet more credence to the whole “online is ass” mantra in this game.